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	<title>Comments on: Annotated 8-23</title>
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	<description>The Saga of the Working Class Adventurer - New comics every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday!</description>
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		<title>By: Lurklen</title>
		<link>https://guildedage.net/comic/annotated-8-23/comment-page-1/#comment-1369797</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lurklen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2019 06:18:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://guildedage.net/?post_type=comic&#038;p=10499#comment-1369797</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sabremeister, yeah on Sword vs mail, I gotta side with Shadowblade here. If you were lucky, some of the blade types of the late 13/ early 1400&#039;s became more narrow at the tip, and could get in with a thrust through some mail, though penetration was not excellent, but mail stops most cutting actions in their tracks, it&#039;s kind of the whole point. Axes can do some cuts through mail, most particularly on hard bone areas, such as the collar, and the joints, or the hands. Places where the flesh is close to the bone. But even with the axe it was not a guarantee, though broken bones and trauma were very much likely, and with later better made mail it became less viable. But swords are pretty much stopped dead by mail. The thing to remember about armour is, if it didn&#039;t work, they would not have kept using it. (Especially considering how much it cost, in time, effort, and money.)

Now as one caveat to all of this. No item in service is in 100% good condition all the time, and it only takes some half-assed repair job, or a bad bit of weather, and little down time, for rust, or poor craftsmanship, or negligence to damage even a few connected links. This combined with variance in production, and quality of product, could mean that sometimes mail was not what it was meant to be. We have no statistics on equipment failure rates during the middle ages (It would put so many internet arguments to rest if we did) so we can&#039;t know just how often an unexpected blow that should have been blocked became a wound, or possibly a killing stroke. It could be that this failure rate was high enough that these weapons were considered to be worth using against mailed opponents, or that the type of damage accrued was bad enough without the armor failing, for the use of swords and axes to be viable. That said, in a perfect white room scenario, someone in mail should feel secure that a sword will not cut through it, and that even a large axe will struggle to cut them through it. 

(Another small aside: First, mail was very form fitting, we see it often depicted as loose and open, but in fact when looking at contemporary sources we find that it was fitted closely to the body. This is likely for ease of movement and to minimize weight. Secondly, mail was not distributed equally across the body, even in a full suit (which there were, dudes just head to toe in chain) the areas most likely to be struck, outer arms, upper legs, chest, shoulders, were thickly armored, with more connections and layers of mail, while other parts had only a thin covering. This is also for flexibility and weight, but also ventilation, layers of metal and padding get HOT. However, this means there are areas on the body, less protected, and so easier to injure with a precise strike. This is where we may see some action with the sword, or spear, and somewhat the axe (though less so as the vulnerable spots are more open to thrusting) and why there is such a mixed interpretation of the viability of some weapons against armour. Also because Hollywood thinks of armor as shiny bulky clothing.     

(Another point for axes (Sorry to go on again) is they are cheaper to produce, having only a head, and a wooden pole.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sabremeister, yeah on Sword vs mail, I gotta side with Shadowblade here. If you were lucky, some of the blade types of the late 13/ early 1400&#8217;s became more narrow at the tip, and could get in with a thrust through some mail, though penetration was not excellent, but mail stops most cutting actions in their tracks, it&#8217;s kind of the whole point. Axes can do some cuts through mail, most particularly on hard bone areas, such as the collar, and the joints, or the hands. Places where the flesh is close to the bone. But even with the axe it was not a guarantee, though broken bones and trauma were very much likely, and with later better made mail it became less viable. But swords are pretty much stopped dead by mail. The thing to remember about armour is, if it didn&#8217;t work, they would not have kept using it. (Especially considering how much it cost, in time, effort, and money.)</p>
<p>Now as one caveat to all of this. No item in service is in 100% good condition all the time, and it only takes some half-assed repair job, or a bad bit of weather, and little down time, for rust, or poor craftsmanship, or negligence to damage even a few connected links. This combined with variance in production, and quality of product, could mean that sometimes mail was not what it was meant to be. We have no statistics on equipment failure rates during the middle ages (It would put so many internet arguments to rest if we did) so we can&#8217;t know just how often an unexpected blow that should have been blocked became a wound, or possibly a killing stroke. It could be that this failure rate was high enough that these weapons were considered to be worth using against mailed opponents, or that the type of damage accrued was bad enough without the armor failing, for the use of swords and axes to be viable. That said, in a perfect white room scenario, someone in mail should feel secure that a sword will not cut through it, and that even a large axe will struggle to cut them through it. </p>
<p>(Another small aside: First, mail was very form fitting, we see it often depicted as loose and open, but in fact when looking at contemporary sources we find that it was fitted closely to the body. This is likely for ease of movement and to minimize weight. Secondly, mail was not distributed equally across the body, even in a full suit (which there were, dudes just head to toe in chain) the areas most likely to be struck, outer arms, upper legs, chest, shoulders, were thickly armored, with more connections and layers of mail, while other parts had only a thin covering. This is also for flexibility and weight, but also ventilation, layers of metal and padding get HOT. However, this means there are areas on the body, less protected, and so easier to injure with a precise strike. This is where we may see some action with the sword, or spear, and somewhat the axe (though less so as the vulnerable spots are more open to thrusting) and why there is such a mixed interpretation of the viability of some weapons against armour. Also because Hollywood thinks of armor as shiny bulky clothing.     </p>
<p>(Another point for axes (Sorry to go on again) is they are cheaper to produce, having only a head, and a wooden pole.)</p>
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		<title>By: Drake Shadowblade</title>
		<link>https://guildedage.net/comic/annotated-8-23/comment-page-1/#comment-1369733</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Drake Shadowblade]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Feb 2019 18:12:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://guildedage.net/?post_type=comic&#038;p=10499#comment-1369733</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I will apologize for a couple things.  I certainly apologize for grossly being inaccurate on the weight of the claymore.  I do not know why that number was in my head.  I also want to apologize for what I meant by &quot;plate mail&quot;.  I merely meant that&#039;s why several people know it as plate mail.  In the earlier editions of D&#038;D it&#039;s called &quot;plate mail&quot;.  Ask an average person with a basic passing knowledge of medieval times what a suit of armor would be called and they&#039;d probably refer to it as &quot;plate mail&quot;. Throughout the rest of my text I refer to it as plate... both before and after.

However... I never specified a time frame.  Plate armor has weighed all sorts of amounts through the ages.  The Roman army almost never even wore plate, but instead a half plate like described.  You take a look at Frigg and she is wearing heavy plate, closer to (as you said) tournament armor.  You can also frequently see that she&#039;s wearing a mail hauberk under her breastplate.  She&#039;s also frequently using a shield, which appears to be a fair bit larger than a scutum, which on average weighed around 20-25 lbs.  So hers might be around 30-35.  She&#039;s also wielding a mace with a ridiculously large head and a fairly large haft.  It&#039;s not meant for single hand use.  So I stand by my comment of 100+ pounds and swinging around a sledge.  The one point where you are absolutely wrong is that swords do not cut cleanly through mail. 
 There are videos and shows (Deadliest Warrior) about people swinging swords, or even the legendary katana, at pigs covered in mail and there is no underlying damage after multiple blows, let alone cutting clean through. There are also videos of axes being stopped dead in their tracks.  Sure a good blow will bust open a couple links, exposing more area to strike, but against a new set of mail they are useless.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will apologize for a couple things.  I certainly apologize for grossly being inaccurate on the weight of the claymore.  I do not know why that number was in my head.  I also want to apologize for what I meant by &#8220;plate mail&#8221;.  I merely meant that&#8217;s why several people know it as plate mail.  In the earlier editions of D&amp;D it&#8217;s called &#8220;plate mail&#8221;.  Ask an average person with a basic passing knowledge of medieval times what a suit of armor would be called and they&#8217;d probably refer to it as &#8220;plate mail&#8221;. Throughout the rest of my text I refer to it as plate&#8230; both before and after.</p>
<p>However&#8230; I never specified a time frame.  Plate armor has weighed all sorts of amounts through the ages.  The Roman army almost never even wore plate, but instead a half plate like described.  You take a look at Frigg and she is wearing heavy plate, closer to (as you said) tournament armor.  You can also frequently see that she&#8217;s wearing a mail hauberk under her breastplate.  She&#8217;s also frequently using a shield, which appears to be a fair bit larger than a scutum, which on average weighed around 20-25 lbs.  So hers might be around 30-35.  She&#8217;s also wielding a mace with a ridiculously large head and a fairly large haft.  It&#8217;s not meant for single hand use.  So I stand by my comment of 100+ pounds and swinging around a sledge.  The one point where you are absolutely wrong is that swords do not cut cleanly through mail.<br />
 There are videos and shows (Deadliest Warrior) about people swinging swords, or even the legendary katana, at pigs covered in mail and there is no underlying damage after multiple blows, let alone cutting clean through. There are also videos of axes being stopped dead in their tracks.  Sure a good blow will bust open a couple links, exposing more area to strike, but against a new set of mail they are useless.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: nemui</title>
		<link>https://guildedage.net/comic/annotated-8-23/comment-page-1/#comment-1369696</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nemui]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Feb 2019 10:45:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://guildedage.net/?post_type=comic&#038;p=10499#comment-1369696</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah, I don&#039;t have a problem with cartoonish exaggeration. It&#039;s just that if both a handaxe and a mace are oversized, the mace should definitely look and feel heftier throughout - it&#039;s relying more on raw mass than any bladed weapon.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I don&#8217;t have a problem with cartoonish exaggeration. It&#8217;s just that if both a handaxe and a mace are oversized, the mace should definitely look and feel heftier throughout &#8211; it&#8217;s relying more on raw mass than any bladed weapon.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Thrawcheld</title>
		<link>https://guildedage.net/comic/annotated-8-23/comment-page-1/#comment-1369681</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thrawcheld]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Feb 2019 08:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://guildedage.net/?post_type=comic&#038;p=10499#comment-1369681</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[... oh for an edit or preview button.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230; oh for an edit or preview button.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Thrawcheld</title>
		<link>https://guildedage.net/comic/annotated-8-23/comment-page-1/#comment-1369680</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thrawcheld]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Feb 2019 08:09:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://guildedage.net/?post_type=comic&#038;p=10499#comment-1369680</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Of course the size of those blades, and their sockets, is cartoonishly exaggerated. Realistically they&#039;d be less than a quarter that size. Same goes for the mace, where a really big head not only gets unwieldy but loses impact pressure.

I don&#039;t count this as an artistic failure. In fact, considering the nature of this comic (a pastiche of WoW), it&#039;d be a failure if they &lt;em&gt;weren&#039;t cartoonishly exaggerated. Now you mention it though, I notice Frigg&#039;s mace does seem to change size between panels 1 and 3.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course the size of those blades, and their sockets, is cartoonishly exaggerated. Realistically they&#8217;d be less than a quarter that size. Same goes for the mace, where a really big head not only gets unwieldy but loses impact pressure.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t count this as an artistic failure. In fact, considering the nature of this comic (a pastiche of WoW), it&#8217;d be a failure if they <em>weren&#8217;t cartoonishly exaggerated. Now you mention it though, I notice Frigg&#8217;s mace does seem to change size between panels 1 and 3.</em></p>
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