Axemas Special 2014 – Page 9
NEW COMMENT MODERATION POLICY BELOW, PLEASE READ!
Hey, everyone. This is Phil Kahn, co-creator of Guilded Age and primary site admin/moderator of comments. For as long as we’ve been running this site and comments section, we’ve had exactly one rule:
“Don’t be a jerk.”
It is a constant disappointment how hard this seems to be for some people. It is one thing to criticize the work. It is another thing to be a jerk (accidentally, even) and then recognize your jerkitude and try to make up for it. But it’s a whole other can of worms entirely to show up just to deliberately stir up shit. And that’s what we’re no longer willing to tolerate.
This isn’t a free speech issue and never was. We’re not Town Hall or City Council, or even a public park. This is our home. We’re hosting a party here, and disorderly guests cannot stay.
We will not simply delete your comments. We will not simply perma-ban you. We will RETCON you.
The user I banned today, I didn’t just ban. I deleted all previous comments they’ve made, and as a result, all comments that responded to it. I’m sorry it has to be this way, but that’s where we are now. The alternative is turning off the comments permanently, and I am wholly uninterested in punishing the good eggs out there who actually learned how to play nice with others at some point in their life. In fact, keeping the bad eggs in the same carton is effectively punishing the good eggs, and that’s something that we need to stop, for the benefit of the rest of you. We’re sorry that it has all come to this, but we see no other options.
So from here on out, we will not hesitate to delete/ban if we believe you’ve become a huge problem. We will, generally, still try to appeal to your sense of decency before we punish. But if that’s met with more hostility then, well, Retcon ahoy. If you disagree with this new policy, you are welcome to go hang out in some other comic’s comment section.
There will be no further warnings.
Thank you for your understanding, thank you for reading, and please don’t let this dissuade you from participating in the comments in general… if you’re reading this, odds are you’re not a problem. But if you are, we sure as Hell will let you know.
– Phil
now i just feel like i missed out on an entire week of soapies. shame people can’t be nice, keep up the good work guys.
Strange thing…I did not notice any of this. Must have been pretty bad…but then, I fail to notice a lot of things, at least that´s what my sons keep telling me.
From what I’ve seen Phil is pretty on the ball when it comes to dealing with stuff. …makes me wonder if he’s really some kind of robot.
That’s right, we’re on to you!
That would be the best kind of robot. I’ve seen Phil put his foot down only on a few especially disruptive cases, and I’ve always been more than impressed with the kind of hospitality, respect, a and down-right decency he’s responded with, that you don’t often see online, by users or moderators. So if people have really gone low enough to warrant this kind of a reaction from someone who’s been so kind as to not only invite us into their home but also make it a really nice place to stay, I fully support whatever redesigning the guys feel needs to happen to balance the feng shui.
Can I just state that I freaking love you guys?
Also, Hanukkah Harry is a staple at our house. He and Santa give out presents equally.
We’re all ghosts in denial.
Isn’t that H.R. is basing his experiment on? That we are living in a ‘hallucination’ or a false sense of reality like the prisoners in the cave in Plato’s allegory?
I wonder if H.R. is short for Harold, Harrison, etc, Roger Dedalus?
Hans Rudi. ^_^
(I hope.)
Herbert Reinhardt Dedalus
Well, Dedalus *could* be a German surname.
Ooooor
Hamred Rack Dedalus, for the ubiquitous Herge reference… we do have ubiquitous Herge references, right?
Homer Radamanthus Dedalus
Human Resources. Thought that was pretty obvious. ;)
Armageddony.
Amageddadonkey … and ride it!
Armagedd… on, yu wayward son?
Armagiggity
Armageddon-hungry.
Yeah, but are you gettin’ it? – Armageddon it!
Ooh, really gettin’ it? – Yes, Armaggedon it!
I’m up all night to ‘geddon lucky.
Damn. I don’t know what happened but I totally support you guys. You’ve been pretty laid back — moreso than a lot of webcomic creators, that’s for sure.
Yeah, site moderation is an unfortunate necessity these days, above a certain level of traffic. So there’s that! You’re big enough to start attracting trolls.
aw poop, I feel like I missed something good.
You made the right choice guys. I myself can be a jerk sometimes(hell, bring a jerk is my nature), but I wholly support anything you do to make the Guilded Age a better community. No idea why I said this, but hey, I am That One Guy :P
I wonder now who was removed from existence.
Testing… wasn’t me, phew
But how do you know that you still exist?
I feel like doubting one’s own existence is entirely impossible.
It’s quite easy with the right (or wrong) pharmaceuticals. Or just a bad flu. Lying half-awake with a massive fever at 3AM because you can’t figure out if you still exist or not is not a fun experience at all, trust me on this one :P.
Tidus! :D
Back in high school, one of our teachers challenged us with proving to him that we exist. We had to think of a way to show him tangible evidence. I was the only one who could…I showed him the loan payment booklet for my pickup truck at the time; I convinced the bank in my existence enough that they loaned me money & I showed that evidence to the teacher.
I’ve never had any doubt that I exist… :)
I post, therefore I am.
I post, therefore it wasn’t me! :D
Some dude who was all like “damn this sucks even more than sepiaworld”. Nothing else constructive, just shit-talking.
Well that answers that. Too bad I didn’t have a chance to chew their ass out royally before they were shown the door.
Actually, that guy’s still there. The guy what’s been retconned compared suggesting people be banned for doing nothing but complain to the North Korean regime.
Yep. It was an ignorant thing to say, and I called him on it, but I didn’t see what happened after that. I assume he dug himself deeper, then?
How does one become an accidental jerk? Does it involve being bitten by radioactive creole spices?
(Asking rhetorical questions probably figures prominently.)
Remember when the comic got a new artist? Or when H.R. was introduced? I personally thought a few people could have practice a little more tact with their constructive criticism.
(raises hand) ooh ooh, I remember.
I know my comments have not added a great deal but I am now afraid to open a door quickly, to move suddenly, to lift weights or to dry meat.
And I am trying not to be shocked into changing my perspective as well!
Don’t worry, you’re fine.
Or is that just what you want him to think?!
No one can be trusted anymore!
So it´s “wipe your feet or stay outside” ? I can live with that.
Or clean your keyboard once in a while…
Or, just avoid typing comments with your third leg. It’s got a mind of its own, and it loves getting you hip deep in trouble.
Huh? … Wait! No! Don’t tap “Post Comment”!
Gotta say, this is a bad idea for several reasons.
1. The last things you tell a disruptive individual is that their punishment will involve collateral damage and/or inconvenience others. If nothing else, it encourages them to keep acting that way. If they cared about bothering others, do you really think they’d be acting that way in the first place?
2. This kinda fits in with #1 but warrants its own point: Don’t punish the group for the sins of a few.
The only time this really works is if the group has the means to bring the troublemaker in line. Users of forums/comment feeds generally lack that ability. By not only removing non-offending comments by the troublemaker but also replies to those comments, you’re punishing rule-abiding/new visitors to the site via deletion of potentially insightful/compelling commentary.
3. Moderation is best done with finesse. A trademark of a superbly-moderated community is that the average user won’t even notice any moderation. While pulling this off tends to require a dedicated moderation team that’s available round the clock, the foundation remains: One shouldn’t be more disruptive than the post/topic/user you’re dealing with. This policy has the potential to be the complete opposite of that.
4. You’ve given additional incentive to a subset of the disruptive types. Any such person who’s planning to target the site now knows they can inflict even more damage if they’re able to compromise a user’s account. Again a tie to #1 but it applies. Have a bone to pick with one user here(or from another Gravitar-enabled site)? Whelp, if you can get their login info, not only can you get them banned from everywhere they frequent but you can now get their entire history on one of those sites erased(with the fringe benefit of nuking other posts as well).
5. It’s more work. Or I can only assume it is since I’ve not mucked with the admin-side of Gravitar all that much.
In all honesty, the only moderately redeeming side to this concept is that it may teach people to stop feeding the trolls.
That said, Phil, take a deep breath and don’t let the trolls get to you. Moderating a community is akin to tending plants, weeds pop up and you get rid of em without harming the overall garden. There’ll be spurts where there’s more weeds to take care of and there’ll be times where there’s hardly any. That’s just how it goes.
I’ll give you #5, but the rest don’t hold water to me.
The change won’t mess up the innocent that badly. The absolute worst-case scenario is that someone civil decides to go rogue, at which point it’s possible for a bunch of clever comments might be lost from posterity. This is extremely unlikely, enough so that I’d bet if it happened they would ponder an alternate plan.
Also, if I make the mistake of engaging a troll and then my argument with said jerk is deleted from the internet? I’m okay with that. Wouldn’t mind terribly if some of my stupider IRL arguments got deleted from the universe, while we’re at it.
If you look at the other comments here, you’ll note that people are sure something DID disappear…and they don’t know what. And they only have an inkling that something could be missing because Phil personally told them so. A couple people who show up within the first few hours of the shitstorm might recognize it occurred. Everyone else will see clean streets and bright sunshine. Getting entirely rid of the truly offensive folks – and the counterarguments – provides that sense of cleanliness.
As for #4…I really don’t think the history-erasure will be that much worse than having one’s account hacked and permabanned in general. I certainly don’t expect the extra layer of misfortune would actually motivate a hacker where other potential impetus would fail.
I dunno. I guess what I’m saying is I’ll be really surprised if this decision goes badly for GA.
I’m happy to respond to all of these, since as I said above: Criticism is A-OK.
1. The deletion/breaking of all responses is more of a byproduct of the process by default than any kind of specific punishment. It’s fun for me to wrap it all up in a hilariously-named package such as “Retconning.” You may be right that it encourages them further, but I believe in transparency of management so the truth is the truth.
2. Perhaps you are right, but at the same time, I don’t really consider the removal of follow-up comments much of a “punishment to the good eggs.” I mean sure, their comments are deleted as a byproduct of the bad egg’s comments, but as Karishi said… They’re more likely to be equally jerk responses or noble attempts to defend our honor. Which, of course, we appreciate, but it is no longer necessary if we’re now in the DeletionZone as it were. That said, if you don’t want your responses to trolls deleted… Honestly, I would just recommend not responding to trolls in the first place. That’s our job now.
3. You may be right. But I’m not saying we’re about to just load up guns and start shooting here… Or even saying that we’re going to start deleting stuff we simply don’t like. I’m just saying “We’re not putting up with assholes anymore, so prepare to be deleted if you’re being a disruptive fuck.”
4. As far as I can tell, basically no one posts on the site here using accounts. Just Displaynames and E-Mail addresses. So any action I take would really only extend as far as this website. I mean… hacking accounts? I don’t even know where you’re getting this from. If, by some weird random chance as far as I can tell, someone was actually so vindictive as to pose as another user and shit up my comments section, and “frame” them for trolling or whatever? Well, a link to our e-mail address at the top of the page. They’re welcome to contact me directly and explain the dilly-o. Considering that your posting e-mail address is visibly only to me and other admins… It’ll be pretty easy to smouse out who’s the real deal, and pretty hard to impersonate someone else in the first place.
5. There is no admin-side of Gravitar that I am currently aware of. Gravitar has nothing at all to do with Guilded Age ban policies. They extend only to this website, no further.
You are right that moderating a community is a delicate task, not unlike tending a garden. But every garden needs a scarecrow, so here’s ours. Hopefully, we only have to post it the one time.
Thanks for your concerns & comments, sincerely. I don’t want to be any more of a dick than the people I am trying to hold at bay, and I am no less accountable to call-outs of dickery.
The above poster’s concern about account security probably has something to do with Disqus accounts being able to bind to Gravatar registrations that share an e-mail address. This, however, probably has no bearing on how Gravatar works since it’s a separate comment system.
Incidentally, with the exception of formatting, I find it a lot easier to keep tabs on comments sections with Disqus than I do with Gravatar. Not suggesting any changes, just making an observation.
Given that: I agree with your new policy, I have never moderated a forum before, and I don’t have any particularly special insight into the psychology of a troll…
The big downside I see of the policy is that it is possible for one to begin posting reasonably and constructively, only to get unreasonably angry at some plot event (as impassioned fans are wont to do) and then nuke their comments and everybody else’s constructive replies when they turn to the dark side. At that point, our hypothetical troll doesn’t care what happens to the comment history, but others might.
I’m not sure how often this happens; to my mind, commentators and trolls are both parties with strong feelings about the work (the vast majority of people only read without commenting) so it might be a short hop from the former group to the latter, but that’s just my gut talking.
Despite this, I like your solution better than an alternative where responses are preserved. While I don’t think there is much punitive benefit to retconning a troll, doing so prevents any sort of bandwagon from forming around trolling behavior. As long as evidence of trolling exists, any potential ne’er-do-well will find empirical evidence that it is possible push you past the point of no-tolerance. I fear that will encourage them to feel solidarity and justification for their own malicious behavior, confident that they aren’t alone, that their griefing is effective, and that you are a “tyrant” squashing “reasonable criticism you don’t like.”
If you nuke all troll comments from orbit, as far as the next troll can tell the comments are 100% well reasoned and productive, and will be more likely to see themselves as the delinquent they are before submitting.
I doubt it’s common to transition from a productive commenter to somebody so out of line that it’s necessary to invoke the nuclear option.
Especially since if you’re a frequent commenter Phil probably remembers you and that you’re usually a reasonable person, and gives you more warnings to calm down before he erases you.
The only thing I can think of that might work better would be if there was an easy way to flag trolls so that nobody can see their posts except other trolls. I have no idea if your system is capable of that. The improvement is minor, mostly a community service type thing where any time that the trolls spend making snarky comments at each other is time that they can’t spend defacing other people’s sites, so the longer you can maintain the illusion that they’re still being heard, the better.
Probably not worth the extra time involved unless it would be easy to do, but amusing to contemplate.
Agreed on both counts.
The main problem I’d point out regarding unpersoning someone and their posts from existence… is that what they did to get banned is no longer there as an example of what NOT to do…
I’ve had to rely a lot on observing banning patterns in communities in order to determine what could and couldn’t be said in order to avoid bans myself… and that becomes difficult when I don’t have any examples around of what NOT to do.
For the record… no… it isn’t intuitive. At least not to me.
I think the moderation policy is great. I think the community will passively help keep trolls in check, by simply not replying to or down the chain from their comments. I know if I have a long or clever comment I want to post, I won’t wanna do it as a reply to someone who seems to be developing trollish tendencies. I’ll just reply to someone else, or start a new chain.
Whatever you do, pleeeeease don’t change comment systems, without an end of the world reason. I used to spend way way to much time commenting over at Looking For Group. I would post long, elaborate theories, song parodies, and puns by the boatload. I have no idea how many hundreds of hours I spent there, over a number of years, but I felt like I was contributing something to the community.
When Disqus changed it’s policies, and started requiring a fee or ad space, LFG decided they didn’t like either option, and switched to Facebook Comments. I know for them, it seemed like a sound businesses decision, but for the community, it wasn’t just a nuclear option, it was an Extinction Level Event. Every comment that anyone had ever made, on the site, was gone in a flash. Lia’s reaction to losing Rachel was mild, compared to what I felt. I was devastated. I tried to go on, with the new system, but I couldn’t put my heart into it, like before.
To make matters worse, months later, LFG decided they didn’t like Facebook Comments, so they chose to cause another E.L.E., and changed to a new system, called Vuukle. With all the comments wiped again, I still tried commenting some, but Vuukle’s toxicity (censorship) system is such a resource hog, that it kept crashing my tablet. Now, I just occasionally visit LFG, catch up on a month or two’s worth of comics, and once in a while try to post a comment or two.
I found Guilded Age a few weeks ago, and I absolutely love it. The comic is amazing, and I love how important the community is to y’all. Reading and responding to the comments makes me feel like I’ve known everyone since the beginning, even though I’m still 4 years behind. I can’t wait to / absolutely dread getting caught up to the current comic. :)
You guys and your community are awesome!
I should’ve known something was up when I saw that guy selling popcorn outside the entrance to the comments section.
Aw, man. Not gonna lie, I would like to know what went down, but I’ll live. It’s sad that it has to be anything other than an unspoken rule that people not be jerks.
I must say. i never saw it as that bad but maybe i have overlooked the really bad comments or i am just used to it by now since they are much worse comment sections out there in the Internet.
But hey ,i really enjoy a nice community for a Change so why not?
Well now I want eggs.
I know only one rule for internet forums: Don’t Feed the Trolls. Once you have realized that someone is a Troll/Jerk (as opposed to a “delusional misfit who only needs to be educated”), don’t respond. That cuts back the collateral damage of removal tremendously and also robs the deliberate (as opposed to accidental) jerk of his preferred food, the reactions of others.
I, for one, welcome our new, tryannical, masters.
I too prostrate myself before our new overlords. Although I do it in the hope of a cool gravatar next rotation.
Gravitar distribution is definitely not up to me, but randomly determined by the system. There are Gods you can pray to, perhaps?
You mean that YOU are not amongst them!?
MY LIFE IS A LIE!!!
Demigods are, after all, only half divine. Gotta leave some room for mortal badassery in there, y’know?
Hah the gravatar fits so well with your comment.
I laughed for a full five minutes at the threat of being retconned. It’s the comic equivalent of going full pharoah and striking people’s names from recorded history.
I love it. Carry on.
FTR, the fancy Latin term for that is damnatio memoriae.
When you say “there will be no more warnings”, do you intend to let people know when they’re trying your patience, before retconning them?
(I ask as a general rule. Even if you do intend to warn, I would imagine there’s behaviour that would be shitty enough that it warrants an instant banning.)
Also. Is this what *really* happened to Rachel?
Too soon :(
Well, you’ve gotta admit, trying to kick someone in the eye for pulling your friend’s leg is a bit over the top.
Oh yes, indeed. Even with this new policy, I still believe at least a single warning will happen first. In fact, I will revise the policy to reflect this, just so no one’s confused!
Don’t ever be concerned about taking care of “your home” … if RETCONNING some people are needed… DO IT! I love this web-comic.
Nuke them from orbit, just to be sure.
Before they lay eggs, myes.
The “Living Room” policy works well as it reminds people that they are guests here. None of us are paying customers, and even then, customers should show civility to those providing goods/service. I am sorry someone broke the ‘Don’t be a Dick’ rule, but glad that you’re being mature and very open about this.
I never caught the comment(s) that caused the stir, but to heck with ’em. If somebody needs to grabbed by the scruff and tossed out the door, go for it. I like this comic and I have no problem with staying civil. If people just followed the “I don’t like this so I’ll leave it be” line of thinking, it’d be great.
I didn’t either, but looking back at something else I remember, there appears to be comments that I remembered gone. I think I know now what happened. Man I wish my brain wasn’t retconned or I’d remember names. But perhaps it’s a name best forgotten now.
I also find it extremely amusing the comic you linked to. While I read the comic, I stay the hell away from the comments section.
I read the comments section there. And, well, it’s a lot more contentious than over here, but I haven’t seen too many pages where it gets to the point that it’s terrible. Willis is pretty good at speed-weeding out offensive comments.
Phil,
Years ago, (2001-2006?) I used to keep a homepage on Elftown, which was kind of a precursor to Deviant Art, etc… it’s still there. Let me quote you from it:
‘My House is a Safe Zone.
Beyond the normal rules that apply to Safe Zone areas, please understand this:
As I get older I find I have less and less tolerance of sexually abusive behaviour, racism, and rudeness. If you come into my house, you will show respect to myself and those I hold dear, or I will find and use whatever means necessary to block your access. I kid you not.
Elihion Longtoes.’
You are not doing anything wrong in defending your home from people who don’t have the self control to be allowed out alone on the Internet.
Regards,
Eli…
Burn the heretic. Kill the mutant. Purge the unclean.
youre doing the emperor’s work, son.
All hail the God Emprah.
Death to the false Emperor!
Well way to go Lia. Guy tells a story about his suicidal brother and you have to go and one-up him with your apocalypse tale. Insensitive.
You need to look beyond the surface of the apocalypse tale. The implication is not only that her ex believed all this, but that it was, in fact, the reason they split up a month before Christmas. Perhaps not as bad as a suicidal brother, but definitely way up there if it was a good relationship prior to this.
The joke was that… taking the apocalypse tale at face value… made the other story seem… never mind.
I, for one, welcome our new administrative overlord(s)
Longtime reader, first time commenter.
Just want to say that a “Guilding of Age” crossover would be neat to see.
I veto this suggestion.
I might not have the authority to do so, but I do so anyway.
I assume that directing would-be assholes to a webcomic that is no less intolerant of assholery in the comments is intentional? ^_^
Yes, that would indeed be the joke.
‘If the right don’t get ya, then the left one will…’
Eli…
What ARE you doing with a 401k, Dan? Everyone knows your money would be better off in a tax-exempt retirement vehicle. Geeeez.
Thanks for the “We’re hosting a party and disorderly guests will be required to leave” analogy.
I’ve always given the “Freedom of Speechers” the reply my printer always gave “Freedom of the press belongs to those who own the press, please feel free to go buy your own press” IOW go create your own website for griefing and trolling or go join 4chan.
And on that note, back to the party!
It honestly breaks my heart that we now have people we can shake our heads at and call “Freedom of Speechers.” The types of people who open carry their shitty, regressive opinions.
Due to my strong sense of curiosity and my lack of self-preservation instinct, I’m really intensely interested in what people could post that would be so bad that you had to retcon them out of existance.
I mean, people talking about which things they don’t like in the comic is hopefully not considered “trolling”? That’s just feedback, or maybe just geeking out if they don’t realize the creators will read it. People do have the right – the need, actually – to talk about what they don’t like and why, especially in a place where others listening are in a position to both change what needs to be changed and explain why things are the way they are.
And I’m sure you guys know all that. You’re a bunch of huge geeks, you know how geek culture gets, they like to pick apart the things they love. So I assume and hope you’re talking about something else, like people just being pointless assholes to other users, or making racist remarks?
Bingo.
I enjoy that Lia and Dan seem as cute in RL as Rachel and E-Merl were in-game. Without the romantic angle, true, but since there’s some evidence that these players’ Arkerran selves are still around and acting when the players aren’t, I have to wonder how much of Rachel and E-Merl’s thing, if any, was actually played by Lia and Dan.
For the record… if I ever get banned here… I can’t go to Dumbing of Age.
Not sure how the transformers-loving tosspot manages his sites… but I got IP-banned from Shortpacked, and I imagine that means I’m banned from all of them.
And I won’t redact what I said: Thundercats is, always was, and always will be better than Transformers.
but…y2k killed tonatiuh