Not like he’s doing anything the Gastonians haven’t done to the Savage Peoples. Besides, he’s chasing after the single Peacemaker that’s caused the most deaths so far and one of the head honchos of Gastonia’s military might. The fact that he followed them into a medical facility, or that he’s trying to kill someone who his teammate injured, doesn’t really matter for that.
You’re talking about the Graiya’s Bough incident? All the deaths on the Savage people’s side there were on the part of invading soldiers. Unlike the wood elves they were attempting to wipe off the map because they traded timber to the Gastonians.
I mean that she didn’t have good reason. Simply that she was responsible for the most deaths out of all the peacekeepers. And here she is, injured while he’s right nearby. It makes sense to off her now, before she can do something like that again.
On top of that, it’d be a gigantic propaganda victory, given that she’s part of the Wood Elf royal family, the leader of the Gastonian champions, and part of the Gastonian government. And, hey, with her is one of the human leaders. It’s a twofer.
All he has to do is charge into the hospital they ducked into during a battle, and finish them off.
I was talking more about the fact that the Champion of the Fuzzy Peoples cheerfully owns up to hunting down the weak and wounded. That’s what Ardaic accuses him of, and rather than countering with any of the reasons you just mentioned he simply admits that that’s his nature.
Ardaic also called him a dog and implied with the weak and wounded thing that all dogs are cowardly scavengers.
Auraugu’s reply seems more like “A dog? Yeah, I’m a dog. I follow my instincts, I survive and I protect my people. That is what a dog does and he doesn’t let some entitled old man make him feel bad because the dog is doing what you would do in the exact same situation.”
Ah, no, Ardaic compared him to a dog. And Auraugu agreed with the comparison. Taking pride in a nature that prompts you to do unethical things doesn’t making doing unethical things suddenly ethical.
Let’s be clear here, attacking people weaker than you and wounded people is a dick move. I’d be saying the same thing if Ardaic was doing it and Auraugu wasn’t.
On the whole, the Peacekeepers are coming off as the better of the two groups so far.
Attacking people weaker that you unprompted is a dick move to be sure. Attacking people you intend to kill because they are a threat to you and yours either directly or by proven association in a WAR is the nature of it.
War isn’t noble. Was is messed up and ugly. If you have a major player in front of you whose death will speed the wheels of victory, you don’t let a little thing like morality or the fact that the job only got half done stop you. You chase them and you finish them because that is why you are there.
And he is mocking Ardaic. Auraugu said perhaps he is a dog. His nature is to hunt, to fight, to win, and if there is any question as to what lengths he would go to for the protection of the fuzzy people, that answer is any. If that is what a dog is, then maybe he is one.
That would hold more weight if we’d seen Auraugu pursuing Syr and/or Ardaic before this. Last we saw him he was helping an ally finish of Rachel and/or Frigg.
So with that in mind it looks like he ditched an actual fight to go attack the field hospital. And kill people who were completely defenseless.
But seriously, when did people get the impression I think war is a pretty pile of rainbows? By telling me that ugly things happen in war and you do what you have to to finish things, you are all agreeing with me.
Auraugu is trying to justify himself, but it doesn’t change that what he’s doing isn’t noble. It’s messed up and ugly, as you said.
Yup agreed on the first part, war sucks and everybody is displaying a special brand of war time ethics that to an outside observer can look evil or whatever you are going for.
Aaand Ardaic is a part of the camp that feels it is fine to beat/torture/etc… neutralized prisoners who are even more helpless than some of the folks in that hospital if that is what helps Gastonia. They are also pretty cool with enslaving entire races that hadn’t willingly picked a side in the war.
The Peacekeepers themselves are pretty cool about avoiding the worst of these ethical lows, so far, but the faction they work directly for is most certainly not, they know its not, and they still support it.
“War isn’t noble. Was is messed up and ugly. If you have a major player in front of you whose death will speed the wheels of victory, you don’t let a little thing like morality or the fact that the job only got half done stop you. You chase them and you finish them because that is why you are there.”
War has laws. Not respecting any of it just makes one a rampaging monster. The kind that has to be put down. Permanently.
It is the fact that you stick to rules that makes the difference between humans, soldiers and savages, criminals.
Technically, as a gnoll, he IS a dog, and by extension a hunter. It’s a common hunting strategy in the wold to go for the sick and wounded, since they’re easy kills and that guarantees meat.
As others have said, Syr is a major player in the war and offing her is common sense, the fact that she’s an invalid at the moment just makes that easier (I’m not saying it’s right, but it is smart)
Ethical matters are not objective. They are a concept exclusive to the interaction of social beings and with no existence beyond that, and as such they are as subjective as each being that might consider them.
To regard the attacking of the “weak” and “wounded” as “a dick move” is not some sort of all-inclusive moral absolute. It is something you may decry, but from the perspective of a pragmatist, it is a downright sensible thing to do… to that point that refusal to systematically eliminate weakness when the opportunity is provided shows poor judgement at best and treason at worst.
Irrespective… what Auraugu is doing here isn’t “attacking the weak”. He is attacking the strongest of the Gastonian forces during their least-strong moment. It is no more an act of cowardice than the moment Link uses his item of choice on the flashing zone in any Legend of Zelda boss-fight.
Skimming the reading just seems to suggest that you two come from opposing philosophical camps. (their camp is actually mentioned in the opening statement of yours in the couple of places I bothered to look so it is quite popular as well )
So they declare, without actually naming it directly (they might not even know or care about that branch of philosophy but they are mimicking in well), that they belong to a certain philosophical camp and makes some supporting statements drawing on what is happening in the comic. Then you, basically, declare that you come from the other side of that area of philosophy and… well, you don’t really say anything much at all beyond picking a side but I think you FEEL your sentence opposes them in some fashion? You are making me feel like agreeing with a character I don’t like to agree with simply by making such an odd non-argument. (Its like you said: There is a group of people out there who oppose what you are saying therefore what you are saying is unsupported [even though there is this whole other group that supports it])
No. No it isn’t. I even explained how it isn’t. You’ll have to do better than just contradicting me.
And in case you hadn’t noticed, Auraugu (who has been a bit scuffed up in combat) got in a fight with Ardaic (who has also been a bit scuffed up). This doesn’t yet qualify as “lashing out at wounded soldiers”… and yet even if it did, that begs the question of what one wishes to achieve in battle at all. One must necessarily weaken a strong enemy in the process of defeating them entirely. Wounds are the obvious position between health and death here. There is no reason why it would be any more or less dickish to finish the job than to attack a person at full health.
““A dog? Yeah, I’m a dog. I follow my instincts, I survive and I protect my people. That is what a dog does and he doesn’t let some entitled old man make him feel bad because the dog is doing what you would do in the exact same situation.” – ”
Nature and instincts are a bad disguise to honourless, uncallled-for deeds. But well, what to expect from savages?
They already wiped out the Cat Folk – surely that was about survival too, huh? -, they make no distinction between civilians and soldiers/fighters, they claim to represent the world … so much baloney.
Not to mention that so far, the Gastonians have never, EVER executed prisoners and wounded, downed but breathing enemy soldiers.
It’s often been implied, though indirectly, that Gastonians have pushed the savage races off their land. Hell, they were even encroaching upon the wood elves prior to the outbreak of the war (Syr mentioned them wanting lumber or some such).
The Gastonians might not, though we haven’t seen anything one way or the other there IIRC.
The Peacekeepers, on the other hand, probably would. And since that’s the group the Champions are currently paralleling, that’s the group I’m going to compare them to.
Also, for all of Auraugu’s faults, real or perceived, I doubt “stupid enough to attack helpless people before the armed enemy drawing his sword at you is dealt with” is among them.
She does exist, yes. She also doesn’t have any bearing on whether the Gastonians give quarter or not, since taking prisoners is kind of the opposite of “not giving quarter”.
I’m not questioning Auraugu’s intelligence. I’m simply pointing out that attacking wounded people or those weaker than you is a dick move, regardless of whether you have to take out a stronger opponent beforehand to do so.
Taking out Ardaic and/or Syr is a very smart move that any military force would make given the chance. If you’ve followed the NATO bombings during the past two decades or so you’ll notice that the *insert dictator*’s villa/mansion is one of the first targets that gets pulverized.
That’s true. But the last we saw of Auraugu he was getting ready to face off against Rachel with Magda. I might have missed it, but I don’t see him going after Syr at any point after she is wounded (and I don’t think he tangled with her before, either).
So basically what we’ve got here is Auraugu leaving Magda to solo Rachel (though Magda may have Penk as backup, depending on who ends up where) so that he can attack the wounded/Syr. It makes him look bad.
Although I find it beautiful to read how manliness and a code of conduct seem to belong together in your phrasing “dick move” I would still be interested as to what you mean with it. Something like “morally bad”? “The ethically wrong thing to do”?
I encountered the phrase before but I still was wondering what the male sexual organ (which seems to be meant here, I’m obviously no native speaker) has to do with anything. And I didn’t try to imply much beyond that. What I did do was hinting to the interesting fact that notions of “honor”, “nobility” and so on are often linked to concepts of masculinity. The phrase “dick move” seems to be a very interesting example for that. Furthermore – thanks for your answer – “Jerk” is interesting, too, as it seems to be used almost exclusively for men. (Source: Google image search)
The reason I asked was another and is given enough attention in the discussion below: Is it really an ethically bad behaviour that is shown by Auraugu if considered in the context of war? Or is it justified? Your statement struck me as very interesting because you seemed to consider the context (war) and still consider it as unjustified. And the reasons for this did interest me. (In the meantime you explained them further in the discussion below so you don’t have to bother again.)
“Dick” and “jerk” are both ways to say “highly unpleasant and rude person, especially one who is perceived to be overly assertive and/or believed to consciously and deliberately violate social conventions and act to antagonize others.” It is admittedly the case that such a description is more in line with male than female stereotypes, which is probably why “dick” seems to be more commonly used than “cunt,” which means roughly the same thing when used to describe a person. Note though that either word may potentially be applied regardless of the gender of the person being described.
That said, I’ve never heard anybody describe an action as a “cunt move.” That could be interesting to analyze sometime.
I agree this is a ‘dick move’, but it’s one you’ll see frequently in a war of absolute attrition with no international rules to skirt around and no real hope of peace ever being on the table (yet).
Lets explore the group parallel you referenced. The Peacekeepers, like Gastonia, have the luxury of showing a bit of conscience-nursing mercy and honor (which also helps with propaganda) as afforded by their superior resources in both quantity and quality. They’re also on the defensive side that just has to outlast the ‘barbarian alliance’ that will eventually collapse with few permanent sources of food, weapons etc. They don’t need to wipe out the rebellion, just outlast it.
Meanwhile the champs, like the rest of the rebels, fight desperately for survival against a much loathed overdog oppressor as implied by Auraugu in the second-to-last panel. They know that they NEED this win and that they NEED to take every possible opportunity to reduce Gastonian resources (including soldier count) or they’re all dead in the long run. They simply can’t afford much mercy beyond quick, less-painful death.
If anything Auraugu may be showing as much mercy and honor as he can by only chasing with intent to finish the enemy’s wounded leader and not to also off wounded soldiers. Still a ‘dick move’ on ye olde battlefield of honor to chase down and finish KO’d Syr, but not doing so could easily be a decisive tactical blunder the champs can’t afford.
Yeah. My original comment was more to say that regardless of Auraugu’s justifications he’s not doing a nice thing, not to make a general statement on war and the casualties thereof. I’m kind of surprised it’s generated this much discussion.
I’m just concerned that if the goal is to portray this as a grey on grey conflict the authors are dropping the ball slightly by making the Champions look a bit darker than the Peacekeepers.
I know, of course, that this is their first major conflict and that there’s lots of room for development, so I’m not complaining about it. Just wondering where we’re going from here, that’s all.
Well it’s kinda expected that the first reply taking Ardaic’s OR Auraugu’s ‘side’ would probly start a reply chain. At least it’s a pretty reasonable one for the most part.
I don’t think that this really makes Auraugu look ‘bad’, if anything it makes him look smart and practical. Now if he attacks any of the wounded soldiers (unless they attack first) that would be different i.e. resorting to slaughtering the defenseless. But I don’t think that’s where this is going. I’m guessing his pwning of Ardaic gave Fr’nj just enough time to partially heal her sis. So here’s the billing as I see it…
PPV EVENT
HANDICAP CHAMPIONSHIP MATCH: HELL IN THE HOSPITAL
AURAUGU – the longstanding FUZZY title holder who remains technically undefeated from multiple peacemaker skirmishes
vs
THE ‘NJ SISTERS – spunky challengers with a grudge against the champ for backstage Bough theft, but the more experienced tag partner is (to some degree) suffering from old injuries. Can they still pull off the upset tonight and dethrone the champ? Tune in tonight at 12am and find out!
Ticket price: 1 non-fatal battle injury, conscious gastonians only
Tickets sold out
Yes they are. But we should Take It Easy, for One Of These Nights (tonight!) these Desperado birds will Take It to the Limit, erasing the blimp-riders’ Peaceful Easy Feeling as they see they’re living Life In the Fast Lane.
Hyes. As a hero he should’ve acted stupidly, and allowed the Enemy Champion to retreat, heal, and come back to terrorize his people. Targeting a wounded, retreating Syr’ng, while not really “brave”, is smart. Finishing her off ends her reign of terror. Letting her retreat just ensures she’ll be back to hurt you later.
Plus ALL luchadors are full of themselves. Machismo is part of the pagentry of the sport, because a luchador that isn’t ENTHUSIASTIC about how strong he is isn’t any fun to watch!! Humble luchadors are boring luchadors. The luchador isn’t merely a fighter, he must put on a performance to inspire his peoples!! If he is not full of himself and certain of his talent, he cannot serve as a beacon of self-confidence that he is meant to be.
Either way, by Lucha standards he’s a technico (lucha libre’s “hero alignment”) based on his speed/precision based styles and noble intent. Lucha libre is a sport that operates in black and white, with no gray areas. If he was a rudo (lucha libre “villain alignment”) we’d know, because he’d be an absurd over-the-top villain (and focus more on brawling styles, and use improvised weapons much more often) rather than acting as an over-the-top overconfident hero.
As for his choice in targets… it seems more tactical then anything else. Right now he’s trying to make sure that the “Evil” Champion’s vital support unit dies, rather than escape to heal, regroup, and terrorize the Fuzzy People’s yet again. This fits the lucha libre technico style, selecting targets carefully to deal the most damage overall (targeting the support Champions (healers and priests) of the enemy team), rather then mindlessly brawling against the stronger enemies.
This is a very interesting insight. And while I agree wholeheartedly with what you said, and that it is tactical and by luchador standards heroic, it still isn’t what people view as noble or even good. Mind you, while the luchador world may be black and white and auraugu is from there, the real world isn’t that way.
As a person who gets frequent migraines, it’s very, very easy to dislike Auraugu. I wish someone would muzzle and hog-tie him, and drag him to a shrink, so he could be treated for whatever chemical imbalance is making him so annoying. Or, maybe just take him to the vet, and have him neutered.
I’ll probably feel differently, when my head gets better. But, for now, I’m not a fan.
“Champion of the fuzzy peoples” is also darkly ironic when you consider that the gnolls, by their own account, eradicated all of the other fuzzy peoples.
Auraugu is… Well I’ve never liked the character. Two wrongs dont make a right, the whole attack on medical center, Penk’s recent acting… And the (maybe) suicide birds really dont cast the Savage Races in any sort of good light… I get that its supposed to not be black and white but right now it seems to be. Now… Something else interesting is that gold armored figure in the white cape in panel 1. We already saw a Silver Sentinel, what this time, Golden Guardian?
I wish they got rid of the whole World Rebellion. Just have the Peacemakers versus evil guys and the cultists.Everything dosen’t need to be grey and grey..some like good vs evil fantasy…nothing needs to be morally ambigius.
Even so I hope Peacemakers win..they all died once..they need a solid happy break and ending
I’m having trouble finding the right words to express just how much I disagree with you.
Moral ambiguity is not required for a story to be good, but call me a fool and feed me my own shoes if it doesn’t help. Characters, regardless of whether they’re good, evil, or completely indifferent with regards to morality, all do things for reasons. Never has there been a story which was not improved by the author thinking about what these reasons are, because even if they aren’t made obvious to the audience, they add depth. Believable motivations make a character more interesting, and often more relatable.
I can understand the desire to have only one side to cheer for even if I don’t share it, but from what I can infer from your comments, you are lobbying quite literally for less depth. Why does Auraugu need to be heroic? Because he’s getting screen time? He’s spent that time being a good friend to Penk before – would you rather those pages were never written because they make him seem like a person rather than a simple obstacle to the heroes’ success?
I can like a person. I can also hate one. The same is not true of an obstacle. As for Auraugu, he’s actually been my favorite ever since I first started reading, but this impression has been weakening ever since Penk manned (trolled?) up and took a lava bath. In the past, he’s been funny, he’s been a friend, and up against the Peacemakers, he’s been a credible threat. Here, he’s not being taken seriously by the people who should be afraid of his cheerful demeanor, and they’ve quite literally tossed him aside twice already.
Anyone remember his introductory dialogue? “I will not waste my strength with trifling ones!”? He hasn’t shown a strong impression of being bloodthirsty in the past, so this recent behavior of targeting the wounded just… grinds on me. I could buy it if I had something more than words spoken in the heat of the moment about his devotion to the cause, but well… the story has had other things to focus on.
In summary, the guy is no hero, but even villains have standards.
Repeating it doesn’t make it right. There are always no example of wars in the history of mankind that are just black and white. Why should it be different in Arkerra? I got nothing against your personal preference for good vs evil fantasy (actually I do, but that doesn’t belong here) but obviously you won’t get it here. About which I’m glad because I love the storytelling here.
He’s also following orders that were set forth even before they marched on Gastonia…Wasn’t one of the primary goals established to include the death of one or more of the Peacemakers?
I think what she means is that dogs can’t do that (wrong kind of spine I think). Arguably though, as Gnoles are not quadrupeds and clearly take the design of there skeleton from a human basis, he should have no problem. Dog’s don’t have collarbones either, but his ability to lift things and wrestle makes it clear he does, so I think its safe to say he’s an ape for most purposes.
♪Old man, there’s no need to feel down.
I said, old man, pick yourself off the ground.
I said, old man, ’cause you’re in a new town
There’s no need to be unhappy.
Yes, Ardaic, because we all know a group of HEROES wouldn’t chase down a wounded villain leader if her allies were trying to get her to safety after they nearly finished her off and ended her threat to them.
Likely. The heroes I end up running with send to slaughter and maim until the serious chance of some bad happening comes up. I have even had some who wanted to deny treasure to their allies on the basic premise of ‘they are just npcs’
Agreed, one of the biggest successes of this webcomic in my opinion is the telling of a complex and realistic conflict, where both side have legitimate grievances, and heroic and selfish individuals on both sides. Don’t “black and white” it just to pander to the masses, there are lots of mediums/ comics like that.
I wish I could just +1 you! While it is cathartic to just smash an irredeemably evil enemy (so we don’t have to feel bad about it afterwards), I think it’s much more interesting to make it a match between opponents with different goals trying to sort out the world they find themselves in.
Indecently, I would not consider this comic a grey-grey story. It’s unrealistic to expect some charicters to strap on their boots and say: Lets do evil for evil’s sake! Developing motivations, and creating a situation in which both sides are morally good, but with different priorities, makes the story much more compelling. Both sides are morally justified on different terms. The ‘Savage Races’ are reclaiming what was stolen from them, while the peace keepers are trying to protect lives. I suppose the Gastonian nation could be considered evil, as it insists on maintaining sovereignty of it’s colonized land, but from it’s perspective it’s doing what it must to provide for the Gastonians, at the expense of what they believe are inferior races.
The thing is, how much of the Gastonian land is colonised? The Savasi seem to have an old war grudge / land issue, and the sharkmen seem to be just in this for a ready supply of food and fights, but the trolls, gnolls, goblins and avians just seem to want to exterminate the humans, elves, etc. to make more lebensraum for themselves.
Actually, that isn’t quite fair. The trolls seem to have a religious motivation to exterminate the humans in particular (and, apparently, anyone vaguely aligned with them), the gnolls have a history of exterminating other sapient species to take their land etc, and the motivation of the goblins and avians I’d left unspecified.
Realistic rules of combat #14: When unarmed and facing a armed opponent, your best strategy is to disarm your opponent, or sunder their weapon before they can bring its advantages against you.
I’d say Auraugu has done a damn good job of making use of this one. The Field Marshal won’t be a threat for a very long time, perhaps ever again.
He’d better make use of Rule: #26: Broken arms put opponents down, broken necks take them out.
And there’s the German Suplex. Manliest move in wrestling history. Manlier even than the Camel Clutch, which breaks your back and makes you humble. Hyes.
Supposedly William Marshall (Chief of military under Henry II of England) was once in a large scale tournament in which he snuck around and broke into the infirmary. There, as a fully armed knight on his feet, he was able to compel the surrender of a bunch of unarmed knights lying wounded on cots. So he did, and he took their ransoms. And he was still considered one of the most honorable men in Europe.
It’s still a dick move, Auraugu.
Not like he’s doing anything the Gastonians haven’t done to the Savage Peoples. Besides, he’s chasing after the single Peacemaker that’s caused the most deaths so far and one of the head honchos of Gastonia’s military might. The fact that he followed them into a medical facility, or that he’s trying to kill someone who his teammate injured, doesn’t really matter for that.
You’re talking about the Graiya’s Bough incident? All the deaths on the Savage people’s side there were on the part of invading soldiers. Unlike the wood elves they were attempting to wipe off the map because they traded timber to the Gastonians.
I mean that she didn’t have good reason. Simply that she was responsible for the most deaths out of all the peacekeepers. And here she is, injured while he’s right nearby. It makes sense to off her now, before she can do something like that again.
On top of that, it’d be a gigantic propaganda victory, given that she’s part of the Wood Elf royal family, the leader of the Gastonian champions, and part of the Gastonian government. And, hey, with her is one of the human leaders. It’s a twofer.
All he has to do is charge into the hospital they ducked into during a battle, and finish them off.
I was talking more about the fact that the Champion of the Fuzzy Peoples cheerfully owns up to hunting down the weak and wounded. That’s what Ardaic accuses him of, and rather than countering with any of the reasons you just mentioned he simply admits that that’s his nature.
Dick move, that.
Ardaic also called him a dog and implied with the weak and wounded thing that all dogs are cowardly scavengers.
Auraugu’s reply seems more like “A dog? Yeah, I’m a dog. I follow my instincts, I survive and I protect my people. That is what a dog does and he doesn’t let some entitled old man make him feel bad because the dog is doing what you would do in the exact same situation.”
Ah, no, Ardaic compared him to a dog. And Auraugu agreed with the comparison. Taking pride in a nature that prompts you to do unethical things doesn’t making doing unethical things suddenly ethical.
Let’s be clear here, attacking people weaker than you and wounded people is a dick move. I’d be saying the same thing if Ardaic was doing it and Auraugu wasn’t.
On the whole, the Peacekeepers are coming off as the better of the two groups so far.
Attacking people weaker that you unprompted is a dick move to be sure. Attacking people you intend to kill because they are a threat to you and yours either directly or by proven association in a WAR is the nature of it.
War isn’t noble. Was is messed up and ugly. If you have a major player in front of you whose death will speed the wheels of victory, you don’t let a little thing like morality or the fact that the job only got half done stop you. You chase them and you finish them because that is why you are there.
And he is mocking Ardaic. Auraugu said perhaps he is a dog. His nature is to hunt, to fight, to win, and if there is any question as to what lengths he would go to for the protection of the fuzzy people, that answer is any. If that is what a dog is, then maybe he is one.
That would hold more weight if we’d seen Auraugu pursuing Syr and/or Ardaic before this. Last we saw him he was helping an ally finish of Rachel and/or Frigg.
So with that in mind it looks like he ditched an actual fight to go attack the field hospital. And kill people who were completely defenseless.
But seriously, when did people get the impression I think war is a pretty pile of rainbows? By telling me that ugly things happen in war and you do what you have to to finish things, you are all agreeing with me.
Auraugu is trying to justify himself, but it doesn’t change that what he’s doing isn’t noble. It’s messed up and ugly, as you said.
Yup agreed on the first part, war sucks and everybody is displaying a special brand of war time ethics that to an outside observer can look evil or whatever you are going for.
Aaand Ardaic is a part of the camp that feels it is fine to beat/torture/etc… neutralized prisoners who are even more helpless than some of the folks in that hospital if that is what helps Gastonia. They are also pretty cool with enslaving entire races that hadn’t willingly picked a side in the war.
The Peacekeepers themselves are pretty cool about avoiding the worst of these ethical lows, so far, but the faction they work directly for is most certainly not, they know its not, and they still support it.
“War isn’t noble. Was is messed up and ugly. If you have a major player in front of you whose death will speed the wheels of victory, you don’t let a little thing like morality or the fact that the job only got half done stop you. You chase them and you finish them because that is why you are there.”
War has laws. Not respecting any of it just makes one a rampaging monster. The kind that has to be put down. Permanently.
It is the fact that you stick to rules that makes the difference between humans, soldiers and savages, criminals.
It is, after all, important to kill a bunch of people the right way. That’s so much better than killing a bunch of people the wrong way.
Technically, as a gnoll, he IS a dog, and by extension a hunter. It’s a common hunting strategy in the wold to go for the sick and wounded, since they’re easy kills and that guarantees meat.
As others have said, Syr is a major player in the war and offing her is common sense, the fact that she’s an invalid at the moment just makes that easier (I’m not saying it’s right, but it is smart)
Canid obviously, but I think it’s a taxonomic error to state that gnolls are dogs.
Ethical matters are not objective. They are a concept exclusive to the interaction of social beings and with no existence beyond that, and as such they are as subjective as each being that might consider them.
To regard the attacking of the “weak” and “wounded” as “a dick move” is not some sort of all-inclusive moral absolute. It is something you may decry, but from the perspective of a pragmatist, it is a downright sensible thing to do… to that point that refusal to systematically eliminate weakness when the opportunity is provided shows poor judgement at best and treason at worst.
Irrespective… what Auraugu is doing here isn’t “attacking the weak”. He is attacking the strongest of the Gastonian forces during their least-strong moment. It is no more an act of cowardice than the moment Link uses his item of choice on the flashing zone in any Legend of Zelda boss-fight.
You may want to consider the discourse on moral realism before making such bold and unfounded claims.
Skimming the reading just seems to suggest that you two come from opposing philosophical camps. (their camp is actually mentioned in the opening statement of yours in the couple of places I bothered to look so it is quite popular as well )
So they declare, without actually naming it directly (they might not even know or care about that branch of philosophy but they are mimicking in well), that they belong to a certain philosophical camp and makes some supporting statements drawing on what is happening in the comic. Then you, basically, declare that you come from the other side of that area of philosophy and… well, you don’t really say anything much at all beyond picking a side but I think you FEEL your sentence opposes them in some fashion? You are making me feel like agreeing with a character I don’t like to agree with simply by making such an odd non-argument. (Its like you said: There is a group of people out there who oppose what you are saying therefore what you are saying is unsupported [even though there is this whole other group that supports it])
Since I made no unfounded claims, your suggestion is irrelevant… not that it wasn’t anyway. “Moral realism” is inconsistent with actual realism.
“To regard the attacking of the “weak” and “wounded” as “a dick move” is not some sort of all-inclusive moral absolute. ”
Oh yes, it is.
“what Auraugu is doing here isn’t “attacking the weak”.
So lashing out at wounded soldiers is not attacking the weak?
No. No it isn’t. I even explained how it isn’t. You’ll have to do better than just contradicting me.
And in case you hadn’t noticed, Auraugu (who has been a bit scuffed up in combat) got in a fight with Ardaic (who has also been a bit scuffed up). This doesn’t yet qualify as “lashing out at wounded soldiers”… and yet even if it did, that begs the question of what one wishes to achieve in battle at all. One must necessarily weaken a strong enemy in the process of defeating them entirely. Wounds are the obvious position between health and death here. There is no reason why it would be any more or less dickish to finish the job than to attack a person at full health.
““A dog? Yeah, I’m a dog. I follow my instincts, I survive and I protect my people. That is what a dog does and he doesn’t let some entitled old man make him feel bad because the dog is doing what you would do in the exact same situation.” – ”
Nature and instincts are a bad disguise to honourless, uncallled-for deeds. But well, what to expect from savages?
They already wiped out the Cat Folk – surely that was about survival too, huh? -, they make no distinction between civilians and soldiers/fighters, they claim to represent the world … so much baloney.
Not to mention that so far, the Gastonians have never, EVER executed prisoners and wounded, downed but breathing enemy soldiers.
Like that time Syr said “We should execute Yalaria” and Ardaic said “No, that’s not the Gastonian way.”
Um… nowhere in the strip does it say what the Gastonians may have actually done to the savage peoples, other than the Savasi, maybe.
The trolls, for one thing, seem to want to eradicate humans simply because they see them as vermin.
It’s often been implied, though indirectly, that Gastonians have pushed the savage races off their land. Hell, they were even encroaching upon the wood elves prior to the outbreak of the war (Syr mentioned them wanting lumber or some such).
The Gastonians don’t give any quarter to Rebellion wounded, I’m sure. Also, Araugu hasn’t even attacked any of the patients.
The Gastonians might not, though we haven’t seen anything one way or the other there IIRC.
The Peacekeepers, on the other hand, probably would. And since that’s the group the Champions are currently paralleling, that’s the group I’m going to compare them to.
Yalaria exists.
Also, for all of Auraugu’s faults, real or perceived, I doubt “stupid enough to attack helpless people before the armed enemy drawing his sword at you is dealt with” is among them.
She does exist, yes. She also doesn’t have any bearing on whether the Gastonians give quarter or not, since taking prisoners is kind of the opposite of “not giving quarter”.
I’m not questioning Auraugu’s intelligence. I’m simply pointing out that attacking wounded people or those weaker than you is a dick move, regardless of whether you have to take out a stronger opponent beforehand to do so.
Taking out Ardaic and/or Syr is a very smart move that any military force would make given the chance. If you’ve followed the NATO bombings during the past two decades or so you’ll notice that the *insert dictator*’s villa/mansion is one of the first targets that gets pulverized.
That’s true. But the last we saw of Auraugu he was getting ready to face off against Rachel with Magda. I might have missed it, but I don’t see him going after Syr at any point after she is wounded (and I don’t think he tangled with her before, either).
So basically what we’ve got here is Auraugu leaving Magda to solo Rachel (though Magda may have Penk as backup, depending on who ends up where) so that he can attack the wounded/Syr. It makes him look bad.
Although I find it beautiful to read how manliness and a code of conduct seem to belong together in your phrasing “dick move” I would still be interested as to what you mean with it. Something like “morally bad”? “The ethically wrong thing to do”?
You’re not familiar with the phrase, I take it? I didn’t invent it. Can’t say I appreciate what you’re implying, either.
It’s an alternate way of saying Auraugu’s being a jerk, okay?
I encountered the phrase before but I still was wondering what the male sexual organ (which seems to be meant here, I’m obviously no native speaker) has to do with anything. And I didn’t try to imply much beyond that. What I did do was hinting to the interesting fact that notions of “honor”, “nobility” and so on are often linked to concepts of masculinity. The phrase “dick move” seems to be a very interesting example for that. Furthermore – thanks for your answer – “Jerk” is interesting, too, as it seems to be used almost exclusively for men. (Source: Google image search)
The reason I asked was another and is given enough attention in the discussion below: Is it really an ethically bad behaviour that is shown by Auraugu if considered in the context of war? Or is it justified? Your statement struck me as very interesting because you seemed to consider the context (war) and still consider it as unjustified. And the reasons for this did interest me. (In the meantime you explained them further in the discussion below so you don’t have to bother again.)
Oh, okay. I apologize for snapping at you.
“Dick” and “jerk” are both ways to say “highly unpleasant and rude person, especially one who is perceived to be overly assertive and/or believed to consciously and deliberately violate social conventions and act to antagonize others.” It is admittedly the case that such a description is more in line with male than female stereotypes, which is probably why “dick” seems to be more commonly used than “cunt,” which means roughly the same thing when used to describe a person. Note though that either word may potentially be applied regardless of the gender of the person being described.
That said, I’ve never heard anybody describe an action as a “cunt move.” That could be interesting to analyze sometime.
Thanks. :-)
I agree this is a ‘dick move’, but it’s one you’ll see frequently in a war of absolute attrition with no international rules to skirt around and no real hope of peace ever being on the table (yet).
Lets explore the group parallel you referenced. The Peacekeepers, like Gastonia, have the luxury of showing a bit of conscience-nursing mercy and honor (which also helps with propaganda) as afforded by their superior resources in both quantity and quality. They’re also on the defensive side that just has to outlast the ‘barbarian alliance’ that will eventually collapse with few permanent sources of food, weapons etc. They don’t need to wipe out the rebellion, just outlast it.
Meanwhile the champs, like the rest of the rebels, fight desperately for survival against a much loathed overdog oppressor as implied by Auraugu in the second-to-last panel. They know that they NEED this win and that they NEED to take every possible opportunity to reduce Gastonian resources (including soldier count) or they’re all dead in the long run. They simply can’t afford much mercy beyond quick, less-painful death.
If anything Auraugu may be showing as much mercy and honor as he can by only chasing with intent to finish the enemy’s wounded leader and not to also off wounded soldiers. Still a ‘dick move’ on ye olde battlefield of honor to chase down and finish KO’d Syr, but not doing so could easily be a decisive tactical blunder the champs can’t afford.
Yeah. My original comment was more to say that regardless of Auraugu’s justifications he’s not doing a nice thing, not to make a general statement on war and the casualties thereof. I’m kind of surprised it’s generated this much discussion.
I’m just concerned that if the goal is to portray this as a grey on grey conflict the authors are dropping the ball slightly by making the Champions look a bit darker than the Peacekeepers.
I know, of course, that this is their first major conflict and that there’s lots of room for development, so I’m not complaining about it. Just wondering where we’re going from here, that’s all.
Well it’s kinda expected that the first reply taking Ardaic’s OR Auraugu’s ‘side’ would probly start a reply chain. At least it’s a pretty reasonable one for the most part.
I don’t think that this really makes Auraugu look ‘bad’, if anything it makes him look smart and practical. Now if he attacks any of the wounded soldiers (unless they attack first) that would be different i.e. resorting to slaughtering the defenseless. But I don’t think that’s where this is going. I’m guessing his pwning of Ardaic gave Fr’nj just enough time to partially heal her sis. So here’s the billing as I see it…
PPV EVENT
HANDICAP CHAMPIONSHIP MATCH: HELL IN THE HOSPITAL
AURAUGU – the longstanding FUZZY title holder who remains technically undefeated from multiple peacemaker skirmishes
vs
THE ‘NJ SISTERS – spunky challengers with a grudge against the champ for backstage Bough theft, but the more experienced tag partner is (to some degree) suffering from old injuries. Can they still pull off the upset tonight and dethrone the champ? Tune in tonight at 12am and find out!
Ticket price: 1 non-fatal battle injury, conscious gastonians only
Tickets sold out
I’d say it’s not a problem if one side seems slightly worse than the other – it can still be grey on grey. Perhaps different shades.
The eagles are coming.
Yes they are. But we should Take It Easy, for One Of These Nights (tonight!) these Desperado birds will Take It to the Limit, erasing the blimp-riders’ Peaceful Easy Feeling as they see they’re living Life In the Fast Lane.
There is only applause for you, bigmmac.
But if the Eagles go on the Journey of the Sorceror, they have to be careful of hitchhikers.
…And if hitchhikers are encountered, look to see if one of them is wearing a bathrobe. If so, your continued enjoyment of sanity is at risk.
Yes, this reply took some Deep Thought.
I really don’t like this guy.He’s really full of himself, and dosen’t give off a heroic vibe.
He’s pretty much a villan if not more so by his usual attack targets and all really
Hyes. As a hero he should’ve acted stupidly, and allowed the Enemy Champion to retreat, heal, and come back to terrorize his people. Targeting a wounded, retreating Syr’ng, while not really “brave”, is smart. Finishing her off ends her reign of terror. Letting her retreat just ensures she’ll be back to hurt you later.
Plus ALL luchadors are full of themselves. Machismo is part of the pagentry of the sport, because a luchador that isn’t ENTHUSIASTIC about how strong he is isn’t any fun to watch!! Humble luchadors are boring luchadors. The luchador isn’t merely a fighter, he must put on a performance to inspire his peoples!! If he is not full of himself and certain of his talent, he cannot serve as a beacon of self-confidence that he is meant to be.
Either way, by Lucha standards he’s a technico (lucha libre’s “hero alignment”) based on his speed/precision based styles and noble intent. Lucha libre is a sport that operates in black and white, with no gray areas. If he was a rudo (lucha libre “villain alignment”) we’d know, because he’d be an absurd over-the-top villain (and focus more on brawling styles, and use improvised weapons much more often) rather than acting as an over-the-top overconfident hero.
As for his choice in targets… it seems more tactical then anything else. Right now he’s trying to make sure that the “Evil” Champion’s vital support unit dies, rather than escape to heal, regroup, and terrorize the Fuzzy People’s yet again. This fits the lucha libre technico style, selecting targets carefully to deal the most damage overall (targeting the support Champions (healers and priests) of the enemy team), rather then mindlessly brawling against the stronger enemies.
This is a very interesting insight. And while I agree wholeheartedly with what you said, and that it is tactical and by luchador standards heroic, it still isn’t what people view as noble or even good. Mind you, while the luchador world may be black and white and auraugu is from there, the real world isn’t that way.
Really? And I was just thinking that it is VERY hard to dislike this dude.
HYES!
As a person who gets frequent migraines, it’s very, very easy to dislike Auraugu. I wish someone would muzzle and hog-tie him, and drag him to a shrink, so he could be treated for whatever chemical imbalance is making him so annoying. Or, maybe just take him to the vet, and have him neutered.
I’ll probably feel differently, when my head gets better. But, for now, I’m not a fan.
“Champion of the fuzzy peoples” is also darkly ironic when you consider that the gnolls, by their own account, eradicated all of the other fuzzy peoples.
Auraugu is… Well I’ve never liked the character. Two wrongs dont make a right, the whole attack on medical center, Penk’s recent acting… And the (maybe) suicide birds really dont cast the Savage Races in any sort of good light… I get that its supposed to not be black and white but right now it seems to be. Now… Something else interesting is that gold armored figure in the white cape in panel 1. We already saw a Silver Sentinel, what this time, Golden Guardian?
I wish they got rid of the whole World Rebellion. Just have the Peacemakers versus evil guys and the cultists.Everything dosen’t need to be grey and grey..some like good vs evil fantasy…nothing needs to be morally ambigius.
Even so I hope Peacemakers win..they all died once..they need a solid happy break and ending
I’m having trouble finding the right words to express just how much I disagree with you.
Moral ambiguity is not required for a story to be good, but call me a fool and feed me my own shoes if it doesn’t help. Characters, regardless of whether they’re good, evil, or completely indifferent with regards to morality, all do things for reasons. Never has there been a story which was not improved by the author thinking about what these reasons are, because even if they aren’t made obvious to the audience, they add depth. Believable motivations make a character more interesting, and often more relatable.
I can understand the desire to have only one side to cheer for even if I don’t share it, but from what I can infer from your comments, you are lobbying quite literally for less depth. Why does Auraugu need to be heroic? Because he’s getting screen time? He’s spent that time being a good friend to Penk before – would you rather those pages were never written because they make him seem like a person rather than a simple obstacle to the heroes’ success?
I can like a person. I can also hate one. The same is not true of an obstacle. As for Auraugu, he’s actually been my favorite ever since I first started reading, but this impression has been weakening ever since Penk manned (trolled?) up and took a lava bath. In the past, he’s been funny, he’s been a friend, and up against the Peacemakers, he’s been a credible threat. Here, he’s not being taken seriously by the people who should be afraid of his cheerful demeanor, and they’ve quite literally tossed him aside twice already.
Anyone remember his introductory dialogue? “I will not waste my strength with trifling ones!”? He hasn’t shown a strong impression of being bloodthirsty in the past, so this recent behavior of targeting the wounded just… grinds on me. I could buy it if I had something more than words spoken in the heat of the moment about his devotion to the cause, but well… the story has had other things to focus on.
In summary, the guy is no hero, but even villains have standards.
> nothing needs to be morally ambigius
Repeating it doesn’t make it right. There are always no example of wars in the history of mankind that are just black and white. Why should it be different in Arkerra? I got nothing against your personal preference for good vs evil fantasy (actually I do, but that doesn’t belong here) but obviously you won’t get it here. About which I’m glad because I love the storytelling here.
What if I told you that everything ever is morally ambiguous?
Generalizations have a tendency to be inaccurate.
and only Sith deal in absolutes
Thinker, that gold armored figure in the white cape is a Sky Elf Battlemage.
Oh well, there goes that theory, then.
He’s also following orders that were set forth even before they marched on Gastonia…Wasn’t one of the primary goals established to include the death of one or more of the Peacemakers?
At least it didn’t read: R.I.P. Sweet prince, good night table.
Suplex motherfucker!
A guess this is a TLC match
No NPC could hope to survive such an attack!
Ardaic? Archaic! Alas, all attempts at advantage against Auraugu are (aptly) arriving awry, after all.
But Bandit, bad-assedly braking big berzerker before bite, bee-lined beyond bad-guy battle bidding bye-bye by buddies. BOO-YA!
Copper-clad caped crusader commanding cumbersome craft’s combat crew can carrying coming consequence concerning cast’s circumstances.
Dog doggedly divided defenders defence dashingly daring dangers. Danced down despicable diplomat due deliverance.
Endangered, esteemed exec endevours edged execution! Egads! Evildoer easily evades, engages eagerly, and ends with epithet!
FFFFFuuuuuuuu–
Good going, guys, you goaded our guest into gormless gall.
Ardiac’s arm, Auraugu’s (canine) back, the chair’s legs and surface . . . So many things bending in ways that they should not.
Auraugu’s back seems to bend quite naturally, don’t you think?
When it comes to obtaining a victory, Auraugu is willing to bend over backwards for it.
Araugu’s performing a bridge suplex, which real people can definitely do.
I think what she means is that dogs can’t do that (wrong kind of spine I think). Arguably though, as Gnoles are not quadrupeds and clearly take the design of there skeleton from a human basis, he should have no problem. Dog’s don’t have collarbones either, but his ability to lift things and wrestle makes it clear he does, so I think its safe to say he’s an ape for most purposes.
Everything about his muscular and skeletal structure, except for his head, is humanoid.
(Also, Gnolls’ quadrupedal counterparts aren’t canines. Not even closely related – hyenas are less related to dogs than weasels are.)
Hyes, typically gnolls are hyena based, but they are sometimes (more rarely) canine based. The ones in this comic seem to be a mixture of the two.
♪Old man, there’s no need to feel down.
I said, old man, pick yourself off the ground.
I said, old man, ’cause you’re in a new town
There’s no need to be unhappy.
It’s fun to stay at the Y-M-C-ARMLOCK!♫
Oh no! No the Spanish announcer’s table!
Yes, Ardaic, because we all know a group of HEROES wouldn’t chase down a wounded villain leader if her allies were trying to get her to safety after they nearly finished her off and ended her threat to them.
you must not run with the same ‘heroes’ I see in my group, either in TT or MMO
Likely. The heroes I end up running with send to slaughter and maim until the serious chance of some bad happening comes up. I have even had some who wanted to deny treasure to their allies on the basic premise of ‘they are just npcs’
Auraugu has obviously decided to table this discussion.
Well, I like this grey and grey morality. I think you are doing a wonderful job by portraying a complex fantasy world. Thank you :)
Agreed, one of the biggest successes of this webcomic in my opinion is the telling of a complex and realistic conflict, where both side have legitimate grievances, and heroic and selfish individuals on both sides. Don’t “black and white” it just to pander to the masses, there are lots of mediums/ comics like that.
I wish I could just +1 you! While it is cathartic to just smash an irredeemably evil enemy (so we don’t have to feel bad about it afterwards), I think it’s much more interesting to make it a match between opponents with different goals trying to sort out the world they find themselves in.
Indecently, I would not consider this comic a grey-grey story. It’s unrealistic to expect some charicters to strap on their boots and say: Lets do evil for evil’s sake! Developing motivations, and creating a situation in which both sides are morally good, but with different priorities, makes the story much more compelling. Both sides are morally justified on different terms. The ‘Savage Races’ are reclaiming what was stolen from them, while the peace keepers are trying to protect lives. I suppose the Gastonian nation could be considered evil, as it insists on maintaining sovereignty of it’s colonized land, but from it’s perspective it’s doing what it must to provide for the Gastonians, at the expense of what they believe are inferior races.
The thing is, how much of the Gastonian land is colonised? The Savasi seem to have an old war grudge / land issue, and the sharkmen seem to be just in this for a ready supply of food and fights, but the trolls, gnolls, goblins and avians just seem to want to exterminate the humans, elves, etc. to make more lebensraum for themselves.
Actually, that isn’t quite fair. The trolls seem to have a religious motivation to exterminate the humans in particular (and, apparently, anyone vaguely aligned with them), the gnolls have a history of exterminating other sapient species to take their land etc, and the motivation of the goblins and avians I’d left unspecified.
I wish alt text would work for me again, why would you do this, chrome?
in my thumbnail on feedly, the miniature panel three so looked like Ardaic was strumming a righteous power chord on a yellow guitar.
Poor table. It won’t survive getting whacked by an Ardaic.
Realistic rules of combat #14: When unarmed and facing a armed opponent, your best strategy is to disarm your opponent, or sunder their weapon before they can bring its advantages against you.
I’d say Auraugu has done a damn good job of making use of this one. The Field Marshal won’t be a threat for a very long time, perhaps ever again.
He’d better make use of Rule: #26: Broken arms put opponents down, broken necks take them out.
And there’s the German Suplex. Manliest move in wrestling history. Manlier even than the Camel Clutch, which breaks your back and makes you humble. Hyes.
The Crucifix Powerbomb is still better.
MRW last pannel
http://i.imgur.com/VQLGJOL.gif
HYESPLEX
Apparently, it will offend your delicate sensibilities.
For those who are not so easily offended, they can find a smashing good time to be had.
Nobody’s offended. Just pointing out that despite his justifications Auraugu’s not exactly doing a nice thing here.
Considering they’re currently engaged in a full-scale war with each other, I’d say “not nice” is par for the course.
I agree. I was simply calling him out on it, so to speak, since he tries to frame it as a heroic and/or noble thing. Apologies for the confusion.
If you look closely, you can see the pre-cut seam in the middle of the table. FAKE!!!
Supposedly William Marshall (Chief of military under Henry II of England) was once in a large scale tournament in which he snuck around and broke into the infirmary. There, as a fully armed knight on his feet, he was able to compel the surrender of a bunch of unarmed knights lying wounded on cots. So he did, and he took their ransoms. And he was still considered one of the most honorable men in Europe.