Shrug. The only meaningful difference between Gastonia and the World’s Rebellion is whether the savagery has good PR or not. Imperialistic, industrialized society simply commits it’s atrocities by proxy.
MORAL EQUIVALENCY ALERT. THIS FORUM HAS JUST EXCEEDED THE M.E. OPINION QUOTA ALLOWED FOR THIS MONTH.
Any future M.E. statements before May should be accompanied with donations of antacids for those without the stomach to handle them:)
Guys, GUYS! Rana doesn’t look as concerned at the death of that other Avian as he should be! Don’t you all hate them now when you were just starting to like them and want them all to die horribly?!
Oh, don’t get me wrong, the Gastonian rulers are awful, and I suspect that the foreign policy as been toxic for as long as anyone can remember. I’m just saying that they aren’t deeply flawed, I’m just saying that it’s small potatoes compared to the debauchery (slavery, genocide, etc.) of the Rebellion.
Both sides (talking the leaders here not individual adventuring groups etc…) attempted to enslave the same race. The rebellion just succeeded.
Genocide seems to be done in an attempt to survive in the resource limited wastes that the savage races had to live in after being kicked out of greener pastures/mountains by the Gastonions. (had they not run their THEY would have been either enslaved or eliminated as a race) The Gastonion’s have a leader who sided with a powerful cult seeking to bring about the end of the living world in order to accomplish his little power plays. He fed them/is going to feed them a whole community of his own people to do this.
The reason arguments can always be made for the equivalence of the “evils” on both sides is likely because the authors are working hard to write them that way for as long as possible so you will side with “The Five” who will, I’m betting, eventually be working hard to find a way to save everybody on both sides. The authors want them all to be equally grand or flawed “people” instead of monsters and heroes.
That said I guess its fine for people to point out which side is currently seeming to be ahead in the darkness of their grey so the authors will know if they are doing to good a job muddying one side or the other. (and for the same reason its great that others who truly believe they are still roughly “equal” to support their claims)
Both sides ARE awful. Gastonia is obvious symbolism for America or similar imperialistic regimes (Britain at it’s height). The depersonalization of crime is what allows “civilization” to prosper while convincing themselves the rest of the world is just too inferior and un-bootstraps-y to solve their problems themselves.
It’s not OUR fault that our corporations utilize and encourage child slavery, it just kind of happens and we benefit enormously! It’s not OUR fault it becomes politically convenient to assassinate and destabilize legitimate reform in Africa wherever it threatens profit margins, that’s just the way the pieces fall. Self interested warlords are so much more profitable ya know?
As long as the people at home get their iPods and are insulated from it all, “civilization” marches on pristine and unconcerned with the blood and bondage of millions that sustains it.
TL;DR confronting one’s own culpability is hard and nobody wants to do it, understandably. It’s so much easier to just world fallacy your way through life, as most Gastonians and Americans do.
!. I’m picking up that you’re irritated at me. I’m attempting to express my opinion with humor. I could have responded to Fiaryn as you just did to me. We’d have a full on flame war by now, I’m sure.
2. The arguments and explanations have, in the last few weeks on this forum, been discussed ad nauseum. Which is why I suggested bringing antacids if we’re going to discuss/judge/(and yes, politicize) this further. Says me, with respect and moderation.
But whatever the sins of the USA, I’d still happily label any faction aiming to not only start a war with but exterminate the population of the USA and allied nations, whilst enslaving others to help them get the job done, as “bad guys”. Ditto for Gastonia.
And yet, the only people who have been getting exterminated are those who the powerful countries deemed “threats.” They may burn a lot of American flags, but we burned a lot of their people.
The casualty figures, while tragic, from the succession of stupid conflicts that the US and assorted allied nations have got into over the last few decades are way below genocidal levels, however. However screwed up the goals and outcomes of such conflicts may be, they don’t include extermination.
Unless you have access to unedited recordings of high level executive branch meetings that say otherwise, I would not be too confident that partial extermination of certain races/cultures is not on the long list of goals in our foreign interventions. Those thousands of tomahawks aren’t for show, they’re for “SHOWin’ them who’s boss!”
True, our MO is almost never to fully exterminate because that’s not practicable or profitable. Our superior FOO strategy is long term crippling and mass exploitation (usually via political corruption). Make your enemy reliant on you for survival and comfort while keeping them defanged. The rewards for this include a buttload of natural resouces, some nice new options for strategic military placement, and an extremely valuable source of near-free labor.
Now is this morally ‘better’ than those beaten, exploited and humiliated cultures snapping and declaring ‘cultural/national thunderdome’ because they would rather die fighting in earnest than be ‘peacefully’ and slowly strangled to death? It’s hard to say since that is still ‘technically’ a drastic conflict escalation. Personally I can’t really judge because I can’t even grasp the level of raw hatred this particular hegemonic system creates over time. I’m fortunate enough to not know what it’s like to look at uncle sam’s boot planted on my throat for life. Instead I just watch out for him listening to my phone, scanning my house, reading my (e-)mail, checking my posts and…
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Doing nothing unconstitutional or morally wrong, ever. Also HAHAHA! this was actually a really late April fool’s joke and not a serious comment! Did I fool you??
Where this “strangling to death” story falls down is that most of the world is getting richer. It’s still a screwed up, massively unequal world, with a shedload of shitty politicians in every nation everywhere, and all sorts of problems still, but a large chunk of it is on the way up.
Right, of course: We only killed a tenth of the Vietnamese population. That’s not genocide, merely decimation! I’m sure they’ll understand: We didn’t actually mean to exterminate them; we meant merely to use their country as a battlefield in a proxy war against China. Our morality remains intact!
To clarify my main point was that I see no real moral high ground *chucks bottle of TUMS at biggmac* between a neo-colonial culture prospering from the blood and sweat of weaker groups and those exploited cultures declaring a ‘war to the last breath’ from decades of building resentment created by said cultural domination.
The “strangled to death story” is kinda superfluous to that, it’s just my quick summation of a common logical justification provided for the ‘thunderdome’ declarations. It’s factual truth is not nearly as relevant as the belief that it’s true and even if that belief can be partially dispelled by experts like Hans, they still have a not-so-logical but fairly understandable justification: revenge.
Not sure what kind of intended extermination you’re talking about, RW-wise. It’s fairly easy to attribute the craziest fringe opinions to a whole group of people, ending up with a “they hate us because they hate us” attitude… But that’s like saying the Ku Klux Klan represents the USA.
Gastionia-wise, forcing the Savasi into the desert to starve is pure ethnic cleansing, 100% attempted genocide, no doubt about that.
We don’t know the history of that. And although imperialist landgrabs are certainly a Bad Thing, since the Savasi are displaced rather than dead, it really doesn’t seem on a par with what the gnolls said they did to the other fuzzy peoples.
Or with trying to burn the entire wood elf population alive.
Or with Harki’s stated intent of killing everyone in Gastonia.
Those are false distinctions. Purposefully and knowingly forcing out a group of people from their land into the wastes to die out in a few generations isn’t significantly “better” than burning them all at once and/or eating them.
I feel the comic is doing a great job in presenting us with a realistically grayish world. I don’t see why we keep trying to establish the “bad guys” and the “heroes” on a nation-wide scale. Can’t we just root for a handful of people (from other side) without trying to whitewash their entire national/racial history?
I’m just frustrated with dumb arguments like “we’ve done bad things, they’ve done bad things, therefore we’re as bad as them” (once you’ve made that argument, you’re not allowed to call anyone else’s reasoning “fallacious” again). I never claimed that Gastonia was perfect, or even good. However, in the face of an cabal of cannibals, slavers, and genocidal maniacs bent on the utter extermination of the other party (a party which, I might add, has certainly had the ability to exterminate them back, but hasn’t opted to), I’m pretty sure I’m gonna root for the “civilized” ones. Bad guys? Perhaps, but sure as hell a step up from the alternative.
Oh, and thanks for bringing real-world politics into it! Nothing like hearing conspiratorial rants about the imperialism of a nation that hasn’t grown an inch in 60 years, or that somehow poor nations would be better off if we didn’t trade with them. Sure, make everyone feel bad about the living conditions in other countries while at the same time condemning trying to fix them. Throw out buzzwords like “assassinations” and “destabilizing Africa for profit margins” without examples (or even logic beyond captain planet-style “evil makes money” in spite of the actual poor economics of civil war), surely that will sell people on the evils of America. Apologizing on behalf of America for how other nations handle themselves is a great way to alleviate your own guilt without needing to do anything about the issues you care so deeply about!
Patrice Lumumba, Cote D’Ivoire/Hershey/Child Slavery. Educate yourself. Imperialism is more than physical landgrabs, especially in today’s world. It’s about the economic subjugation of other people. That we do it via corporations to avoid any personal responsibility is just part of the evolution of imperialism.
Whenever I read the phrase “Educate yourself” I assume that the person who wrote it doesn’t care enough about the subject to have done the research themselves and acquired the links/citations to prove such, and thus ignore their arguments.
That doesn’t seem to be a sensible assumption, especially when a starting point is given from which you could start trying to educate yourself. Obviously Fiaryn has given some. To give another example: you or Swagner could start with the WP entry about United_States_intervention_in_Chile, too.
Or just go on and ignore the arguments based on a certain phrase. Nobody here can force you to educate yourself.
You get its a war right? Like, a war to decide the fate of entire civilizations, not a peace talk about zoning laws gone wrong. To finish your enemies off, they need to go from healthy to injured to dead. When your enemy is injured, he can be a issue later, especially in a fantasy world with healing potions and magic. Its ugly stuff, but so is fighting a war of extermination.
People need to get off their high horse cause one person or another is going after a injured person. It is required to make living foes dead foes, which is kinda why they’re all there. It’s not villainous from the Peacekeepers, its not dickish from the Champions. It’s what. Needs. To be. Done.
And the side that can’t get that through their heads is at a huge disadvantage.
My only beef was with Auraugu, who was painting going after a weakened and helpless individual like it was some sort of heroic thing to do. It’s not. It’s ugly, like you said.
During the Vietnam war, the most cost-effective land mine proved to be not the one that kills a soldier outright, but the “leapfrog” that blew up in such a way as to cut off his foot at the ankle.
Lots of screaming. Demoralizing to the team. And instead of 1 casualty, you get 3: the amputee and 2 guys to carry him off.
There have been plenty of campaigns to ban land mines outright. Most “civilized” countries signed a treaty.
So…are you agreeing with me? Because I’m not saying it’s not effective, or necessary. I’m saying it’s ugly, regardless of how people (like Auraugu) might try to pretty it up by painting themselves as doing it for good and noble and heroic reasons. These are not mutually exclusive things.
And really, I’m getting the impression that everyone more or less agrees, which means the continuing argument is probably my fault for not expressing myself well enough originally.
I”ll grant you that it’s not heroic. If that’s what you mean by “ugly” – sure.
But they’re not heroes in the classical sense, are they? They’re “champions”, whatever that’s supposed to mean. At least two of them are champions of some weird apocalyptic deity, to boot. Not sure why you’d expect heroism from them. I wouldn’t even expect the Peacekeepers to let an injured foe recover instead of finishing him off.
Yeah, that’s exactly what I mean. The heroism angle comes from Auggie himself, who styles the Gastonians as “villains” he must save his people from. Both Penk and Auguaru comes across as being very black and white in their outlook, in contrast with Goblaurence and Magda, who take a more balanced view of things.
The thing to remember is that the majority Peacekeepers aren’t Gastonian and two of the ones that are (possibly the only two as I am not sure where most of the human members fall in regards to citizenship) are treated as second hand citizens. They don’t really support the actions and beliefs of the heads of Gastonia but have agreed to fight to keep the country alive nonetheless.
The Champions are very much member’s of their respective societies and the World’s Rebellion. With the possible exceptions of Goblaurence and Magda they very much support the actions and beliefs of the heads of the WR. Even Magda and Goblaurence do to an extent. I get the feeling they wouldn’t have been chosen if they didn’t.
Er..maybe not majority. I am not certain where Frigg, Rachel, and Scip fall in regards to this but I recall that Byron has stated that he isn’t Gastonian and obviously Gravedust, Syr’nj, and Fr’nj aren’t either.
That is a good chunk of and at least half of the original six.
All good points. At this point I’m just looking forward to seeing how this plays out. The more I look at Penk and Augauru’s attitudes, the more I’m convinced that theirs and Magda’s will conflict at some point. That should be interesting to see.
Yeah, they’re kind of nuanced as a grooup. I’d say Auraugu’s supposed heroism is just for show, but Penk genuinely feels he’s 100% righteous – and he’s supposedly the leader.
My guess? We’ll see both groups united in opposition to the cultists, and Penk’s outlook (assuming he survives) will be significantly different after that.
Champions fight for a cause on behalf of someone else. The cause is to save his people from the the Gastonian’s who he sees as villains (bad guys to be opposed) and monsters (not people).
He goes out of his way to use the word Champion and not the word hero. It is possible that he sees himself as an “anti-hero” who is willing to commit dark acts in order to preserve what he sees as good. Similar to the “agent” in Serenity who was able to go about the most horrendous of acts cheerfully and politely because he truly believed he was making a better world where people like him would no longer be necessary and further more would not truly belong. Until Mal opened his eyes to the reality of his masters true nature the Agent was able to remain extremely positive about what he was doing because the pay off was going to be incredibly good and make things awesome for everyone else. (he sort of implied if he wasn’t already dead or neutralized by then he would remove himself in some fashion… ) Don’t know if The Champion of the Fuzzy peoples will truly go as far as that Agent or if he has thought it out that much but he does seem to be a deep thinker under the mask if what he occasionally says to the young Avatar is any indication.
This whole thing makes me wonder about how the PC’s affect the world. Its clear from what H.R. says that The Five, and to a lesser extent the PC’s directly interacting with them, are capable of getting levels of realism/communication out of NPC’s and even PC’s that no other PC’s can on their own. The audience of course sees everybody as fully realized and properly motivated beings. So what I am wondering is: If characters like The Champion of the Fuzzy Peoples is being played by a PC from Sepia world into making certain overall choices it seems unlikely those PC’s have such fine control as to cause all these deep thoughts and speeches we are seeing so are characters like the Champion actually 2 people in one. The PC is calling the big shots but its up to the “game world” side being to come up with reasons WHY he would do all of that? As well as fill in all the little details and skills that make that action really work in a fully realized universe. And just like when H.R. tried to control the world and partially succeeded how often do the characters manage to bend what the PC’s are commanding them to do into something more realistic? Do the PC’s even SEE the same actions that their characters do? Or are they respawning in a grave yard when the character is merely incapacitated with serious injuries in a medic station or whatever? (if that character who ended up with damaged legs is a PC and his PC is aware that he has become gimpy it must mean H.R. has created a rather robust system to deal with non-fatal injuries??)
Can’t wait till we get more on how Sepia world players talk about their experiences though I am starting to get the depressing thought the writers are going to wait till the very end or not at all to reveal this cause they actually aren’t sure of exactly how it goes in any detailed way so are leaving it vague on purpose. :(
Simply put, concentrating your fire is a viable tactic. Down ’em one at a time with coordinated support. One man’s “dick move” is another man’s sound tactics.
Well, it’s sound tactics either way. The two aren’t mutually exclusive. For instance, throwing dirt in your opponent’s eyes is a good way to get the upper hand in a fight to the death, but it’s still often referred to as a “dirty trick.” The pun may or may not be intentional.
Woah guys, WOAH. Passionate debates? This is exactly what the creators want. Don’t give in.
But for real, what a testament to the power of this story that we all care so much. I’m always glad to recommend Guilded Age to my friends for this exact kind of quality.
Impact equals mass times velocity squared, so the greatest contributor to any form of impact is the speed. afterall, bullets are only dangerous because of their speed, and byron’s current speed is comperable combined with those axes being heavy as heck, wielded by byron who has show the strength to warp and misshape metal unbuffed… yeah, that’s probably the equivelant of an anti-tank round with each of those many, many hits
now how the AXES are taking this force without snapping is a better question
The golems were using an aggro-holding ability, as you can tell from panel 5.
More seriously, there’s obviously some major writer prejudice against killing off the named characters, even though a bunch of them have been standing here in a clump fighting each-other to the death for like 60 panels now. I’d expect two or three to have died by now, realistically.
Well of course, you don’t go to the trouble of spending more than a entire chapter dedicated to forming a team to act as the protagonist’s foil, with names and backstories and everything, only to kill them off en masse seconds later. It would be a waste of story and cause backlash from the fans. Clearly there will be one or two casualties, but both teams will end up parting with some mroe grudges but few to no deaths. To much work has been given to the Champions to just have them dispatched as mooks.
Well, unless it was one of those “tragedy of war” things where they build up a character then have them slaughtered as if they were a faceless mook, but that only ever happens to one or two characters, never to a whole crew…
You know what causes backlash? Spending 30 chapters setting up a giant battle to the death, and then having no one die in it. What a fucking waste of time the entire comic has been if the climactic conflicts aren’t going to be taken seriously, because everything else was building up to them.
You’re right – the brand new characters that people like shouldn’t all die yet. Syr’nj, Scipio, Frigg and HAMMERHEAD should all be dead though. Syr’nj and Frigg in particular would be good characters to kill off because they already have other characters set up to take their places.
The comic has way too many characters anyway, and this battle is an excellent opportunity to get it back down to a managable number.
Peacekeepers: Byron, Rachel. Any of the others could, and if any, my money would be on Syr’nj.
Champions: Penk, Magda, Goblaurence, [avian], due partly to unfinished character development of various kinds. (And if the avian isn’t dying, that likely means at least one airship is going down). Hammerhead, however, may well end up dying at the hands of Silver Centurion, to further establish him as a bad-ass (who will inevitably end up clashing with the Peacekeepers at some point).
We are used to summons fading away or going out of control when the summoner is killed/incapacitated but it doesn’t HAVE to be that way and we have yet to have clear evidence as to the general nature of summons in this world let alone if their are exceptions. (seem like a lot of classes so exceptions seem possible.
And if the Five have to take this seriously like it was a real world they would have to allow for the possibility that a summon minion could keep going on after the summoner’s defeat. Not worth the risk when your best damage dealing tank is about to go down. Er… I mean your beloved companion…
I’m not sure what his weapon choice has to do with anything, especially considering (a) Payet Best and his very lethal Axe, (b) there have been no shortage of fatalities in the comic, nor people “shooting to kill”, as it were, and (c) Bayen and Brayen have been used (and used against him) in non-lethal contexts more frequently than arguably every other weapon in the comic combined.
While Byron is an effective tactician, a solid leader (‘zerking aside), and it speaks well to his credit (and makes him my favorite character) that he’s capable of resolving things peacefully and diplomatically as he has in the past, it is rather disappointing that the guy who fights with two weapons, throws himself on the front lines, and bills himself as a Berserker has basically nothing to show for it when a fight gets sufficiently serious.
About the only important combat victory he’s been a party to has been Gigundus, a team effort, but otherwise when the going gets tough he either gets quickly taken out of the fight (KO’d or berserked) or has to rely on his diplomacy check to win the day (Fightopia, Graiya).
So I guess hitting Earth isn’t stupid and Byron is alright with it? Magda should’ve gone with Fire Elementals. Even if it didn’t work in the end for that gnoll priest of Tectonicus.
I think what makes me REALLY hate the Rebel Champions is the fact that they just got thrown together by their leaders, they didn’t really have time to bond or form useful communications. They aren’t a family. (well, Penk and…..The fuzzy dude knew each other, but I don’t think to any great extent.)
No no, guys, I swear, those golems made of solid rock only have 3 armor. The mostly unarmored guy soaking blows with is bare flesh has armor 15. Really. <_<
I usually hand-wave stuff like that by explaining that the iron golem isn’t actually made of iron any more – it’s made of _magically animated_ iron, which is now vulnerable to… just about anything: axes, swords, pixie sticks, fists, teeth. But hey, at least it’s moving now!
Remember this takes place in a video game world. HAMMERHEAD is a PC and the rock golems were only summoned by a PC (in mass even). It would be a bad game if the summons were harder to kill than the party tank (or at perhaps a really bad tank).
if byron were to sink an axe into HAMMERHEAD full strength, it would get stuck. and guessing from the shape of the axes, irretrievably so. the golems appear to be made of sandstone rocks, pebbles, and sand, and should be loosely assembled so they can move around. if the geology of this desert is young enough, the stone might be the kind that hasnt had time to set into solid rock. jackhammering away at this kind of stone would cause huge chunks to simply separate.
honestly, i was wondering how byron is zipping around those things at that speed without any kind of eye protection.
1. Penk goes toe-to-toe with Frigg, can barely stand up to Rachel.
2. HAMMERHEAD tries to solo everything. It’s not very effective.
3. Goblaurence tinkers and does tactics. Semi-effective, potentially world-shattering-kaboom effective.
4. Auraugu is high on sass, low in effectiveness until he hits Ardiac, at which point he goes full-Bane to Ardiac’s Batman.
5. Ranu has barely contributed (although that could change).
6. Magda is apparently the lovechild of Gimli, Bruce Lee, and Sexy Jesus. She carries this stable.
tl;dr, Bitches best stand back and let Magda do the heavy lifting.
This is why I’m really rooting for a Champions vs Cultists fight at some point down the line. Let them fight against people they can actually kill off.
Auraugu and Penk are the only ones who’ve successfully taken a major player off the board (Ardaic and Syr’nj, respectively). Magda’s showy, and hurt Frigg, but she’s still in the game.
Wait, what? If you mean that Yank Costner abombination, then wash your lungs out with asbestos-paste, but it was actually paraphrasing Marvin the Martian
Actually, I meant the animated cartoon from 1973. The foot soldiers are a pair of buzzards named Trigger and Nutsy, and they have beaks not unlike the ex-avian above. No need to get nasty.
Really hope the Peacekeepers turn it around and rock the oppoents..eh..eh?
Also is it just me or do the World Rebellion REALLY enjoy attack injured opponents alot?
Shrug. The only meaningful difference between Gastonia and the World’s Rebellion is whether the savagery has good PR or not. Imperialistic, industrialized society simply commits it’s atrocities by proxy.
MORAL EQUIVALENCY ALERT. THIS FORUM HAS JUST EXCEEDED THE M.E. OPINION QUOTA ALLOWED FOR THIS MONTH.
Any future M.E. statements before May should be accompanied with donations of antacids for those without the stomach to handle them:)
Ah, good. I’m not the only one who’s tired of hearing the (ridiculous) case that both sides are equally awful.
Guys, GUYS! Rana doesn’t look as concerned at the death of that other Avian as he should be! Don’t you all hate them now when you were just starting to like them and want them all to die horribly?!
He’s clearly composing a heartfelt eulogy to be recited later amidst copious tears. Respect his stoic grief, man.
The Gastonians ARE kinda douche bags, and the Rebellion is pretty ruthless.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, the Gastonian rulers are awful, and I suspect that the foreign policy as been toxic for as long as anyone can remember. I’m just saying that they aren’t deeply flawed, I’m just saying that it’s small potatoes compared to the debauchery (slavery, genocide, etc.) of the Rebellion.
*I’m
justnot saying that they aren’t deeply flawed, I’m just saying…Both sides (talking the leaders here not individual adventuring groups etc…) attempted to enslave the same race. The rebellion just succeeded.
Genocide seems to be done in an attempt to survive in the resource limited wastes that the savage races had to live in after being kicked out of greener pastures/mountains by the Gastonions. (had they not run their THEY would have been either enslaved or eliminated as a race) The Gastonion’s have a leader who sided with a powerful cult seeking to bring about the end of the living world in order to accomplish his little power plays. He fed them/is going to feed them a whole community of his own people to do this.
The reason arguments can always be made for the equivalence of the “evils” on both sides is likely because the authors are working hard to write them that way for as long as possible so you will side with “The Five” who will, I’m betting, eventually be working hard to find a way to save everybody on both sides. The authors want them all to be equally grand or flawed “people” instead of monsters and heroes.
That said I guess its fine for people to point out which side is currently seeming to be ahead in the darkness of their grey so the authors will know if they are doing to good a job muddying one side or the other. (and for the same reason its great that others who truly believe they are still roughly “equal” to support their claims)
Both sides ARE awful. Gastonia is obvious symbolism for America or similar imperialistic regimes (Britain at it’s height). The depersonalization of crime is what allows “civilization” to prosper while convincing themselves the rest of the world is just too inferior and un-bootstraps-y to solve their problems themselves.
It’s not OUR fault that our corporations utilize and encourage child slavery, it just kind of happens and we benefit enormously! It’s not OUR fault it becomes politically convenient to assassinate and destabilize legitimate reform in Africa wherever it threatens profit margins, that’s just the way the pieces fall. Self interested warlords are so much more profitable ya know?
As long as the people at home get their iPods and are insulated from it all, “civilization” marches on pristine and unconcerned with the blood and bondage of millions that sustains it.
TL;DR confronting one’s own culpability is hard and nobody wants to do it, understandably. It’s so much easier to just world fallacy your way through life, as most Gastonians and Americans do.
Awaiting antacid donation.
I’m not sure if fighting against yourself is still against the rules…
Get over it. Or hell, present an argument or at least explanation as to why you can’t seem to stomach discussing it.
!. I’m picking up that you’re irritated at me. I’m attempting to express my opinion with humor. I could have responded to Fiaryn as you just did to me. We’d have a full on flame war by now, I’m sure.
2. The arguments and explanations have, in the last few weeks on this forum, been discussed ad nauseum. Which is why I suggested bringing antacids if we’re going to discuss/judge/(and yes, politicize) this further. Says me, with respect and moderation.
But whatever the sins of the USA, I’d still happily label any faction aiming to not only start a war with but exterminate the population of the USA and allied nations, whilst enslaving others to help them get the job done, as “bad guys”. Ditto for Gastonia.
And yet, the only people who have been getting exterminated are those who the powerful countries deemed “threats.” They may burn a lot of American flags, but we burned a lot of their people.
The casualty figures, while tragic, from the succession of stupid conflicts that the US and assorted allied nations have got into over the last few decades are way below genocidal levels, however. However screwed up the goals and outcomes of such conflicts may be, they don’t include extermination.
Unless you have access to unedited recordings of high level executive branch meetings that say otherwise, I would not be too confident that partial extermination of certain races/cultures is not on the long list of goals in our foreign interventions. Those thousands of tomahawks aren’t for show, they’re for “SHOWin’ them who’s boss!”
True, our MO is almost never to fully exterminate because that’s not practicable or profitable. Our superior FOO strategy is long term crippling and mass exploitation (usually via political corruption). Make your enemy reliant on you for survival and comfort while keeping them defanged. The rewards for this include a buttload of natural resouces, some nice new options for strategic military placement, and an extremely valuable source of near-free labor.
Now is this morally ‘better’ than those beaten, exploited and humiliated cultures snapping and declaring ‘cultural/national thunderdome’ because they would rather die fighting in earnest than be ‘peacefully’ and slowly strangled to death? It’s hard to say since that is still ‘technically’ a drastic conflict escalation. Personally I can’t really judge because I can’t even grasp the level of raw hatred this particular hegemonic system creates over time. I’m fortunate enough to not know what it’s like to look at uncle sam’s boot planted on my throat for life. Instead I just watch out for him listening to my phone, scanning my house, reading my (e-)mail, checking my posts and…
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Doing nothing unconstitutional or morally wrong, ever. Also HAHAHA! this was actually a really late April fool’s joke and not a serious comment! Did I fool you??
>_>
<_<
*closes curtains and locks door*
Where this “strangling to death” story falls down is that most of the world is getting richer. It’s still a screwed up, massively unequal world, with a shedload of shitty politicians in every nation everywhere, and all sorts of problems still, but a large chunk of it is on the way up.
http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_reveals_new_insights_on_poverty
http://blog.ted.com/2013/02/04/hans-rosling-shatters-the-myth-of-developed-versus-developing-nations/
Right, of course: We only killed a tenth of the Vietnamese population. That’s not genocide, merely decimation! I’m sure they’ll understand: We didn’t actually mean to exterminate them; we meant merely to use their country as a battlefield in a proxy war against China. Our morality remains intact!
To clarify my main point was that I see no real moral high ground *chucks bottle of TUMS at biggmac* between a neo-colonial culture prospering from the blood and sweat of weaker groups and those exploited cultures declaring a ‘war to the last breath’ from decades of building resentment created by said cultural domination.
The “strangled to death story” is kinda superfluous to that, it’s just my quick summation of a common logical justification provided for the ‘thunderdome’ declarations. It’s factual truth is not nearly as relevant as the belief that it’s true and even if that belief can be partially dispelled by experts like Hans, they still have a not-so-logical but fairly understandable justification: revenge.
Thanks for the TUMS Danzin! See, I’m easy to please.
Burned flags, and, you know, bombed civilians. There’s that.
Not sure what kind of intended extermination you’re talking about, RW-wise. It’s fairly easy to attribute the craziest fringe opinions to a whole group of people, ending up with a “they hate us because they hate us” attitude… But that’s like saying the Ku Klux Klan represents the USA.
Gastionia-wise, forcing the Savasi into the desert to starve is pure ethnic cleansing, 100% attempted genocide, no doubt about that.
We don’t know the history of that. And although imperialist landgrabs are certainly a Bad Thing, since the Savasi are displaced rather than dead, it really doesn’t seem on a par with what the gnolls said they did to the other fuzzy peoples.
Or with trying to burn the entire wood elf population alive.
Or with Harki’s stated intent of killing everyone in Gastonia.
Those are false distinctions. Purposefully and knowingly forcing out a group of people from their land into the wastes to die out in a few generations isn’t significantly “better” than burning them all at once and/or eating them.
I feel the comic is doing a great job in presenting us with a realistically grayish world. I don’t see why we keep trying to establish the “bad guys” and the “heroes” on a nation-wide scale. Can’t we just root for a handful of people (from other side) without trying to whitewash their entire national/racial history?
*Either side, of course. Not “other”.
Spider is right!
I’m just frustrated with dumb arguments like “we’ve done bad things, they’ve done bad things, therefore we’re as bad as them” (once you’ve made that argument, you’re not allowed to call anyone else’s reasoning “fallacious” again). I never claimed that Gastonia was perfect, or even good. However, in the face of an cabal of cannibals, slavers, and genocidal maniacs bent on the utter extermination of the other party (a party which, I might add, has certainly had the ability to exterminate them back, but hasn’t opted to), I’m pretty sure I’m gonna root for the “civilized” ones. Bad guys? Perhaps, but sure as hell a step up from the alternative.
Oh, and thanks for bringing real-world politics into it! Nothing like hearing conspiratorial rants about the imperialism of a nation that hasn’t grown an inch in 60 years, or that somehow poor nations would be better off if we didn’t trade with them. Sure, make everyone feel bad about the living conditions in other countries while at the same time condemning trying to fix them. Throw out buzzwords like “assassinations” and “destabilizing Africa for profit margins” without examples (or even logic beyond captain planet-style “evil makes money” in spite of the actual poor economics of civil war), surely that will sell people on the evils of America. Apologizing on behalf of America for how other nations handle themselves is a great way to alleviate your own guilt without needing to do anything about the issues you care so deeply about!
Patrice Lumumba, Cote D’Ivoire/Hershey/Child Slavery. Educate yourself. Imperialism is more than physical landgrabs, especially in today’s world. It’s about the economic subjugation of other people. That we do it via corporations to avoid any personal responsibility is just part of the evolution of imperialism.
Whenever I read the phrase “Educate yourself” I assume that the person who wrote it doesn’t care enough about the subject to have done the research themselves and acquired the links/citations to prove such, and thus ignore their arguments.
That doesn’t seem to be a sensible assumption, especially when a starting point is given from which you could start trying to educate yourself. Obviously Fiaryn has given some. To give another example: you or Swagner could start with the WP entry about United_States_intervention_in_Chile, too.
Or just go on and ignore the arguments based on a certain phrase. Nobody here can force you to educate yourself.
You get its a war right? Like, a war to decide the fate of entire civilizations, not a peace talk about zoning laws gone wrong. To finish your enemies off, they need to go from healthy to injured to dead. When your enemy is injured, he can be a issue later, especially in a fantasy world with healing potions and magic. Its ugly stuff, but so is fighting a war of extermination.
People need to get off their high horse cause one person or another is going after a injured person. It is required to make living foes dead foes, which is kinda why they’re all there. It’s not villainous from the Peacekeepers, its not dickish from the Champions. It’s what. Needs. To be. Done.
And the side that can’t get that through their heads is at a huge disadvantage.
My only beef was with Auraugu, who was painting going after a weakened and helpless individual like it was some sort of heroic thing to do. It’s not. It’s ugly, like you said.
During the Vietnam war, the most cost-effective land mine proved to be not the one that kills a soldier outright, but the “leapfrog” that blew up in such a way as to cut off his foot at the ankle.
Lots of screaming. Demoralizing to the team. And instead of 1 casualty, you get 3: the amputee and 2 guys to carry him off.
There have been plenty of campaigns to ban land mines outright. Most “civilized” countries signed a treaty.
United States and Russia did not.
So…are you agreeing with me? Because I’m not saying it’s not effective, or necessary. I’m saying it’s ugly, regardless of how people (like Auraugu) might try to pretty it up by painting themselves as doing it for good and noble and heroic reasons. These are not mutually exclusive things.
And really, I’m getting the impression that everyone more or less agrees, which means the continuing argument is probably my fault for not expressing myself well enough originally.
I’m pretty sure that whichever side wins the war will lionize their actions as unflinchingly heroic at all times.
That’s a given, yeah. But I’m more interested in the Champions’ own views. See below.
I”ll grant you that it’s not heroic. If that’s what you mean by “ugly” – sure.
But they’re not heroes in the classical sense, are they? They’re “champions”, whatever that’s supposed to mean. At least two of them are champions of some weird apocalyptic deity, to boot. Not sure why you’d expect heroism from them. I wouldn’t even expect the Peacekeepers to let an injured foe recover instead of finishing him off.
Yeah, that’s exactly what I mean. The heroism angle comes from Auggie himself, who styles the Gastonians as “villains” he must save his people from. Both Penk and Auguaru comes across as being very black and white in their outlook, in contrast with Goblaurence and Magda, who take a more balanced view of things.
The thing to remember is that the majority Peacekeepers aren’t Gastonian and two of the ones that are (possibly the only two as I am not sure where most of the human members fall in regards to citizenship) are treated as second hand citizens. They don’t really support the actions and beliefs of the heads of Gastonia but have agreed to fight to keep the country alive nonetheless.
The Champions are very much member’s of their respective societies and the World’s Rebellion. With the possible exceptions of Goblaurence and Magda they very much support the actions and beliefs of the heads of the WR. Even Magda and Goblaurence do to an extent. I get the feeling they wouldn’t have been chosen if they didn’t.
Er..maybe not majority. I am not certain where Frigg, Rachel, and Scip fall in regards to this but I recall that Byron has stated that he isn’t Gastonian and obviously Gravedust, Syr’nj, and Fr’nj aren’t either.
That is a good chunk of and at least half of the original six.
All good points. At this point I’m just looking forward to seeing how this plays out. The more I look at Penk and Augauru’s attitudes, the more I’m convinced that theirs and Magda’s will conflict at some point. That should be interesting to see.
Yeah, they’re kind of nuanced as a grooup. I’d say Auraugu’s supposed heroism is just for show, but Penk genuinely feels he’s 100% righteous – and he’s supposedly the leader.
My guess? We’ll see both groups united in opposition to the cultists, and Penk’s outlook (assuming he survives) will be significantly different after that.
Champions fight for a cause on behalf of someone else. The cause is to save his people from the the Gastonian’s who he sees as villains (bad guys to be opposed) and monsters (not people).
He goes out of his way to use the word Champion and not the word hero. It is possible that he sees himself as an “anti-hero” who is willing to commit dark acts in order to preserve what he sees as good. Similar to the “agent” in Serenity who was able to go about the most horrendous of acts cheerfully and politely because he truly believed he was making a better world where people like him would no longer be necessary and further more would not truly belong. Until Mal opened his eyes to the reality of his masters true nature the Agent was able to remain extremely positive about what he was doing because the pay off was going to be incredibly good and make things awesome for everyone else. (he sort of implied if he wasn’t already dead or neutralized by then he would remove himself in some fashion… ) Don’t know if The Champion of the Fuzzy peoples will truly go as far as that Agent or if he has thought it out that much but he does seem to be a deep thinker under the mask if what he occasionally says to the young Avatar is any indication.
This whole thing makes me wonder about how the PC’s affect the world. Its clear from what H.R. says that The Five, and to a lesser extent the PC’s directly interacting with them, are capable of getting levels of realism/communication out of NPC’s and even PC’s that no other PC’s can on their own. The audience of course sees everybody as fully realized and properly motivated beings. So what I am wondering is: If characters like The Champion of the Fuzzy Peoples is being played by a PC from Sepia world into making certain overall choices it seems unlikely those PC’s have such fine control as to cause all these deep thoughts and speeches we are seeing so are characters like the Champion actually 2 people in one. The PC is calling the big shots but its up to the “game world” side being to come up with reasons WHY he would do all of that? As well as fill in all the little details and skills that make that action really work in a fully realized universe. And just like when H.R. tried to control the world and partially succeeded how often do the characters manage to bend what the PC’s are commanding them to do into something more realistic? Do the PC’s even SEE the same actions that their characters do? Or are they respawning in a grave yard when the character is merely incapacitated with serious injuries in a medic station or whatever? (if that character who ended up with damaged legs is a PC and his PC is aware that he has become gimpy it must mean H.R. has created a rather robust system to deal with non-fatal injuries??)
Can’t wait till we get more on how Sepia world players talk about their experiences though I am starting to get the depressing thought the writers are going to wait till the very end or not at all to reveal this cause they actually aren’t sure of exactly how it goes in any detailed way so are leaving it vague on purpose. :(
in a world where healing magic is prevalent, the strategy simply must involve finishing off the weakened, there’s simply no way around it.
Simply put, concentrating your fire is a viable tactic. Down ’em one at a time with coordinated support. One man’s “dick move” is another man’s sound tactics.
Well, it’s sound tactics either way. The two aren’t mutually exclusive. For instance, throwing dirt in your opponent’s eyes is a good way to get the upper hand in a fight to the death, but it’s still often referred to as a “dirty trick.” The pun may or may not be intentional.
With the speed potion active, Byron’s current foes are but a minor problem.
Well, they’re made of rock, so wouldn’t it be a miner problem?
picky picky
I like how axes make round holes in his enemies.
Woah guys, WOAH. Passionate debates? This is exactly what the creators want. Don’t give in.
But for real, what a testament to the power of this story that we all care so much. I’m always glad to recommend Guilded Age to my friends for this exact kind of quality.
“Isn’t it ironic that your name is Lucky?”
“Don’t be sarcastic”
Beserker ftw!
Watch for falling rock!
Wouldn’t it be easier to kill the dwarf controlling the monsters first?
I’m still wondering how a non-glowy set of axes can put holes in 3 foot thick rock. Even if it is being wielded with super speed.
It’s possible that it’s just densely packed earth rather than actual rock. Just as good at crushing, but not as durable.
because super speed.
Impact equals mass times velocity squared, so the greatest contributor to any form of impact is the speed. afterall, bullets are only dangerous because of their speed, and byron’s current speed is comperable combined with those axes being heavy as heck, wielded by byron who has show the strength to warp and misshape metal unbuffed… yeah, that’s probably the equivelant of an anti-tank round with each of those many, many hits
now how the AXES are taking this force without snapping is a better question
considering his background, the names on the axes, etc.. I’m pretty certain Byron’s axes are, at least to some degree, magical.
I agree. I don’t think his axes are named after his brothers. I think they’re possessed by his brothers.
Depends on which direction Byron was coming from. The rock monsters might have been closer.
The golems were using an aggro-holding ability, as you can tell from panel 5.
More seriously, there’s obviously some major writer prejudice against killing off the named characters, even though a bunch of them have been standing here in a clump fighting each-other to the death for like 60 panels now. I’d expect two or three to have died by now, realistically.
Well of course, you don’t go to the trouble of spending more than a entire chapter dedicated to forming a team to act as the protagonist’s foil, with names and backstories and everything, only to kill them off en masse seconds later. It would be a waste of story and cause backlash from the fans. Clearly there will be one or two casualties, but both teams will end up parting with some mroe grudges but few to no deaths. To much work has been given to the Champions to just have them dispatched as mooks.
Well, unless it was one of those “tragedy of war” things where they build up a character then have them slaughtered as if they were a faceless mook, but that only ever happens to one or two characters, never to a whole crew…
Task Force X. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_Squad
You know what causes backlash? Spending 30 chapters setting up a giant battle to the death, and then having no one die in it. What a fucking waste of time the entire comic has been if the climactic conflicts aren’t going to be taken seriously, because everything else was building up to them.
You’re right – the brand new characters that people like shouldn’t all die yet. Syr’nj, Scipio, Frigg and HAMMERHEAD should all be dead though. Syr’nj and Frigg in particular would be good characters to kill off because they already have other characters set up to take their places.
The comic has way too many characters anyway, and this battle is an excellent opportunity to get it back down to a managable number.
Meh. I wouldn’t expect “backlash” if nobody died. I still fear someone will, but only disappointed expectations shouldn’t be a reason for this.
People who won’t die today:
Peacekeepers: Byron, Rachel. Any of the others could, and if any, my money would be on Syr’nj.
Champions: Penk, Magda, Goblaurence, [avian], due partly to unfinished character development of various kinds. (And if the avian isn’t dying, that likely means at least one airship is going down). Hammerhead, however, may well end up dying at the hands of Silver Centurion, to further establish him as a bad-ass (who will inevitably end up clashing with the Peacekeepers at some point).
We are used to summons fading away or going out of control when the summoner is killed/incapacitated but it doesn’t HAVE to be that way and we have yet to have clear evidence as to the general nature of summons in this world let alone if their are exceptions. (seem like a lot of classes so exceptions seem possible.
And if the Five have to take this seriously like it was a real world they would have to allow for the possibility that a summon minion could keep going on after the summoner’s defeat. Not worth the risk when your best damage dealing tank is about to go down. Er… I mean your beloved companion…
You got mud on your face, you big disgrace…
Kickin’ your can all over the place!
WE! WILL! WE! WILL! ROCK YOU!
But who rocks the rockers?
Quakers.
The mods. Duh.
People waiting for a table at Cracker Barrel.
When did Taz join the Peacekeepers?
I have that spinny whirling sound in my head every time I look at the last panel.
In panel five, I like how Rachel is turning around and screaming a dramatic “No!” while she kicks Penk in the gut. That’s real multitasking.
Does this mean Byron will finally score a rock-solid victory against non-mook enemies?
As gneiss as it would be, I get the sinking suspicion that he’s about to get clay-ed out within the next few panels.
Schist! That will teach them to take him for granite. Dirt-bags…
It chertainly it looks like the three had feet of clay. One could say that it would be gel silica if they weather through that damage.
It’s probably because it’s hard to get a believably nonlethal victory when you fight with axes…
I’m not sure what his weapon choice has to do with anything, especially considering (a) Payet Best and his very lethal Axe, (b) there have been no shortage of fatalities in the comic, nor people “shooting to kill”, as it were, and (c) Bayen and Brayen have been used (and used against him) in non-lethal contexts more frequently than arguably every other weapon in the comic combined.
While Byron is an effective tactician, a solid leader (‘zerking aside), and it speaks well to his credit (and makes him my favorite character) that he’s capable of resolving things peacefully and diplomatically as he has in the past, it is rather disappointing that the guy who fights with two weapons, throws himself on the front lines, and bills himself as a Berserker has basically nothing to show for it when a fight gets sufficiently serious.
About the only important combat victory he’s been a party to has been Gigundus, a team effort, but otherwise when the going gets tough he either gets quickly taken out of the fight (KO’d or berserked) or has to rely on his diplomacy check to win the day (Fightopia, Graiya).
So I guess hitting Earth isn’t stupid and Byron is alright with it? Magda should’ve gone with Fire Elementals. Even if it didn’t work in the end for that gnoll priest of Tectonicus.
It was a hatchet job…
I see what you did there, without axing any questions.
Listen Jack, enough with the lumbering metaphors.
Indeed, it’s time we put a chop to these puns.
Toucan Sam! Noooooo!
Goooose!!!
Khaaaaaaaaan!!!11!1!
I think what makes me REALLY hate the Rebel Champions is the fact that they just got thrown together by their leaders, they didn’t really have time to bond or form useful communications. They aren’t a family. (well, Penk and…..The fuzzy dude knew each other, but I don’t think to any great extent.)
It’s a bit like a manufactured pop band vs the original band they’re cloning.
Byron’s axes can cut through rock but not shark flesh?
That’s called “plot immunity”. Every GM’s best friend. Whenever they can get away with it, anyway. :p
No no, guys, I swear, those golems made of solid rock only have 3 armor. The mostly unarmored guy soaking blows with is bare flesh has armor 15. Really. <_<
I usually hand-wave stuff like that by explaining that the iron golem isn’t actually made of iron any more – it’s made of _magically animated_ iron, which is now vulnerable to… just about anything: axes, swords, pixie sticks, fists, teeth. But hey, at least it’s moving now!
It’s mostly aggregate.
Remember this takes place in a video game world. HAMMERHEAD is a PC and the rock golems were only summoned by a PC (in mass even). It would be a bad game if the summons were harder to kill than the party tank (or at perhaps a really bad tank).
if byron were to sink an axe into HAMMERHEAD full strength, it would get stuck. and guessing from the shape of the axes, irretrievably so. the golems appear to be made of sandstone rocks, pebbles, and sand, and should be loosely assembled so they can move around. if the geology of this desert is young enough, the stone might be the kind that hasnt had time to set into solid rock. jackhammering away at this kind of stone would cause huge chunks to simply separate.
honestly, i was wondering how byron is zipping around those things at that speed without any kind of eye protection.
So, for those keeping track:
1. Penk goes toe-to-toe with Frigg, can barely stand up to Rachel.
2. HAMMERHEAD tries to solo everything. It’s not very effective.
3. Goblaurence tinkers and does tactics. Semi-effective, potentially world-shattering-kaboom effective.
4. Auraugu is high on sass, low in effectiveness until he hits Ardiac, at which point he goes full-Bane to Ardiac’s Batman.
5. Ranu has barely contributed (although that could change).
6. Magda is apparently the lovechild of Gimli, Bruce Lee, and Sexy Jesus. She carries this stable.
tl;dr, Bitches best stand back and let Magda do the heavy lifting.
This is why I’m really rooting for a Champions vs Cultists fight at some point down the line. Let them fight against people they can actually kill off.
Auraugu and Penk are the only ones who’ve successfully taken a major player off the board (Ardaic and Syr’nj, respectively). Magda’s showy, and hurt Frigg, but she’s still in the game.
I thought Magda was the one that took Syr’nj out of play?
Hmm. Right you are. I’d forgotten the backstab.
I also forgot HAMMERHEAD taking out Scip, until it occurred to me to wonder where he was. (He went flying on page 16, and hasn’t been seen since.)
Raise your hands in the air like you just don’t care!
Why aren’t Byron’s axes tagged?
Because they’re not Scipio’s cigar.
The real question is why isn’t Byron tagged?
Wait, when Trigger got lit up, why didn’t the bomb go boom! Where was the Earth shattering Ka-boom?
Nice Robin Hood reference!
Wait, what? If you mean that Yank Costner abombination, then wash your lungs out with asbestos-paste, but it was actually paraphrasing Marvin the Martian
Actually, I meant the animated cartoon from 1973. The foot soldiers are a pair of buzzards named Trigger and Nutsy, and they have beaks not unlike the ex-avian above. No need to get nasty.
SLICE THE SCROAT!
It is the source of your power.
Who gave the Tasmanian Devil a pair of hatchets?
They’ve killed the last dodo bird avian…
Those golems need names. I’m going to cal them Barney, Barney & Barney…’Cause now they’re all Rubble.